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ASPartOfMe
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19 Feb 2016, 2:21 am

cyberdad wrote:
Wasn't eugenics about reducing the possibility of an individual passing on their genes through sterilization?


Sterilization was a popular method to implement the philosophy of eugenics during the first half of the 20th Century. The idea behind eugenics is to make the quality of humans better through genetics by improving the human gene pool by making sure people with "defective" genes do not breed. Sterlization was a popular and blunt way of doing this. Genocide was a more blunt way of carrying out eugenics, it was so blunt eugenics fell out of favor and carries negative associations to this day. Gene editing is todays method. In the case autism if gene editing works it will turn off the autism and therefore when a person with the turned off gene breeds they will not pass on the "defective" genes which is a method to implement eugenics. But it will not be viewed as bad or scary eugenics but good disease elimination.


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19 Feb 2016, 9:31 am

There is a lot of muddled thinking here.

Eugenics grew out of animal husbandry.

The idea was that people could be bred for desirable characteristics, just as farmers had been breeding animals for desirable characteristics. The initial concepts were simple: individuals with undesirable characteristics would be prevented from reproducing while individuals with desirable characteristics would be encouraged to have as many children as possible.

The key concept of eugenics is controlling the nature of future generations by some means of controlling which traits are reproduced.

How is gene therapy different?

An important distinction to understand if you don't want to be mired in ignorance and superstition about genetic technology is the difference between germ line cells and somatic cells. The germ line cells (eggs and sperm) carry the genetic blueprint for future generations. The rest of the cells in the body are somatic cells. They contain the codes needed to perform their functions in the body, but these codes are never used to make the next generation.

Therapies that alter the code in a particular set of somatic cells may change the molecular function of that cell, allowing, for example, production of a protein that it was previously unable to produce, but those changes cannot be passed to the next generation.

Only edits to the code in germ line cells can be inherited.

There is a write up of this here.
http://www.genetherapynet.com/types-of- ... erapy.html

The technique described in the OP is not any kind of eugenics.

You may want to use politics to deny people the ability to use gene therapies to change the functioning of their own bodies (a hard cell if the therapy allows asthmatics to breathe or diabetics to make insulin, for example) and that's your right. But to argue that all such therapies are "eugenics" makes you seem ignorant to anyone with a rudimentary understanding of the biology and I don't think you are doing your cause any favors by taking this approach.

The position that this technique is some kind of eugenics because it involves genes is akin to Trump's thoughtful positions on Muslims and Mexicans.

hellowp asked: "How can a missing gene be turned on?"

The answer is that a change in a codon, a meaningful letter group in a strand of DNA, can prevent the instructions in a sequence of code from being properly read.

Cells are like molecular factories and sequences of DNA are like the blueprints for the products they create out of raw materials. You have probably heard of the basic "letters" of the genetic code, the ones we name G, A, T, C. These are the amino acids Adenine, Cytosine, Guanine, Thymine. They pair to make the rungs in the helical "ladder" model of DNA. Groups of three of these form a basic unit of DNA information transfer, called a codon and sequences of codons are used by helper molecules in the cell to make proteins for use in the cell and elsewhere in the body. There are many kinds of error that can get into the sequence and many error correction mechanisms defend against that, but sometimes an error in a codon prevents and important function of the cell, for example the production of a vital protein. Any technique that allows the "typo" in the codon to be repaired will permit the cell to begin producing the protein that the undamaged codon would have produced.

If you are interested in this, Nature has a fairly accessible write up here:
http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpag ... on-6523228
and Wikipedia has a codon table here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_codon_table

The technique in the article allows exactly this kind of repair. This is an edit to somatic cells and so cannot be inherited. To use the edit for eugenic purposes, you would have to edit the eggs or sperm, which would not provide any therapeutic benefit to the patient.


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Aristophanes
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19 Feb 2016, 11:08 am

Adamantium wrote:

The key concept of eugenics is controlling the nature of future generations by some means of controlling which traits are reproduced.

How is gene therapy different?

An important distinction to understand if you don't want to be mired in ignorance and superstition about genetic technology is the difference between germ line cells and somatic cells. The germ line cells (eggs and sperm) carry the genetic blueprint for future generations. The rest of the cells in the body are somatic cells. They contain the codes needed to perform their functions in the body, but these codes are never used to make the next generation.

Therapies that alter the code in a particular set of somatic cells may change the molecular function of that cell, allowing, for example, production of a protein that it was previously unable to produce, but those changes cannot be passed to the next generation.

Only edits to the code in germ line cells can be inherited.


Sorry but you're narrowly focusing on a small aspect of a much larger picture while denying that larger picture even exists. I could give a jack s**t if the gene therapy can be inherited or not-- eliminating a gene, whether it be a mere functional worker or a full blown personality trait is still killing off a line of genes which is killing off part of the species itself. So the therapy is not inherited in the next generation, what the hell does that matter if they'll just kill it off in the next generation too?
Also of note the concrete definition (like most) of eugenics doesn't really matter, the intent and purpose of the word however, does: elimination of things different from one's self. Eliminating a single gene is merely using a smaller scalpel than holocausts of past, but it doesn't make the intent any different than previous ones.



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19 Feb 2016, 11:28 am

Aristophanes wrote:
eliminating a gene, whether it be a mere functional worker or a full blown personality trait is still killing off a line of genes which is killing off part of the species itself. So the therapy is not inherited in the next generation, what the hell does that matter if they'll just kill it off in the next generation too?


But facts matter and you are wrong in your understanding of the big and small pictures in significant ways.

They aren't "killing a gene" they are editing a codon, a part of a gene. They aren't "killing off a line" if their therapy edits somatic cells only unless there is some way that this therapy is applied to all people with the codon variation that the edit targets. None of this can be done in humans, yet and there is no indication that there will ever be some method by which the therapy that might someday emerge from this will be forced on anyone, let alone everyone.

Taking up arms against this very good research because it could be construed in some way as being something like eugenics if it was different in significant detail (applicability to humans, practical therapy, universal application, etc.) is unworthy.

What the hell does it matter if this research involves the genetics of 1% of autistics if it isn't used on people, doesn't eliminate autistic traits from the gene pool and currently only serves to advance basic knowledge?


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Adamantium
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19 Feb 2016, 11:36 am

Some more about shank3 for those who are interested:

https://gene.sfari.org/GeneDetail/SHANK3

http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/22q133 ... n-syndrome

Also, for those who are confused about what a gene is, why the sloppy journalist's language about a "missing gene" is profoundly misleading:

http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/handbook/basics/gene


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HisMom
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19 Feb 2016, 12:21 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Neuroscientists reverse autism symptoms Turning on a gene later in life can restore typical behavior in mice.
Quote:
There is more and more evidence showing that some of the defects are indeed reversible, giving hope that we can develop treatment for autistic patients in the future.”


They or you can deny this is eugenics all you want but the language of the scientists strongly suggest otherwise.
..

If "eugenics" will help my son communicate, learn, gain skills and live an independent life, then why not ? Autism isn't just about HFA, it is also about people on the opposite end of the spectrum whose quality of life and whose well being may be positively impacted by research like this.

HFAs who scream "autism pride" and condemn a research that might help individuals like my child are not doing themselves any favour. If they do not share my son's severe autism that affects every aspect of his existence, from understanding basic language to being able to use the toilet then they dont get to talk for him or to complain about research that might help him and others like him.

Not being potty trained at 6 or not saying a word at age 6 due to his autism is nothing to be proud of.

I hope this therapy is made available to LFA kids in my lifetime so I have the pleasure of my son's voice one day, some day, before I die.


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Last edited by HisMom on 19 Feb 2016, 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Aristophanes
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19 Feb 2016, 12:22 pm

Adamantium wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
eliminating a gene, whether it be a mere functional worker or a full blown personality trait is still killing off a line of genes which is killing off part of the species itself. So the therapy is not inherited in the next generation, what the hell does that matter if they'll just kill it off in the next generation too?


But facts matter and you are wrong in your understanding of the big and small pictures in significant ways.

They aren't "killing a gene" they are editing a codon, a part of a gene. They aren't "killing off a line" if their therapy edits somatic cells only unless there is some way that this therapy is applied to all people with the codon variation that the edit targets. None of this can be done in humans, yet and there is no indication that there will ever be some method by which the therapy that might someday emerge from this will be forced on anyone, let alone everyone.

Taking up arms against this very good research because it could be construed in some way as being something like eugenics if it was different in significant detail (applicability to humans, practical therapy, universal application, etc.) is unworthy.

What the hell does it matter if this research involves the genetics of 1% of autistics if it isn't used on people, doesn't eliminate autistic traits from the gene pool and currently only serves to advance basic knowledge?

If it's totally innocuous and does nothing, then why are they researching it? You can't claim it's completely innocuous and then claim it cures something. The big picture, Dr. Frankenstein, is that we shouldn't go f*****g with evolution because we think our 50 years worth of research is as much experience as 4 billion years of nature's research. That's the key to sustainable life: nature will run you over if you don't follow it's rules, it will allow you to ride shotgun if you're smart enough to understand it, but it will never allow you to drive the vehicle and if you try you'll face the repercussions. I'm sure it's just as innocuous as say gibberellic acid-- it'll clone your plants easy and leave no genetic defects! Low and behold, three generations later the plants can't even develop roots because the gibberellic acid fundamentally altered the plant...and that's the problem, science only looks at the current experiment not the consequences three generations down.

edit: grammar.



ASPartOfMe
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19 Feb 2016, 12:30 pm

Based on history an experience and and experience and the money involved I choose not to believe thier statements of very limited intent. Because eugenics has very negative connotations they just can not announce we are going to start sterilizing people thought to be passing on Autism genes. In order to bring eugenics back in favor they probably can not use the word eugenics. They have to start very small. Gene editing they claim and probably will cure or alleviate things like cancer. Not many people except a few cynical pattern thinkers like myself are going to oppose that. If you asked me pre 9/11 about something like the above I would have probably thought of it as the writings of a paranoid lunatic. But Americans have accepted things without a fight I never dreamed they would accept. The survalience state started with small impercetable steps well before 9/11. Lesson learned. The definition of autism has greatly expanded to help people, I see no reason why the definition of eugenics should not expand to prevent harm.

Expanding on what was said above it is equating Autism with things like cancer that will make people accept things or take a chance on things they would not normally accept. I myself think very early and intensive ABA designed to intercept and deflect autistic traits has more "promise" in eliminating autism or core Autistic traits then gene editing. But I won't summerly dismiss the chances of gene editing "accomplishing" the same thing because it seems too complicated at the moment.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 19 Feb 2016, 12:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ASPartOfMe
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19 Feb 2016, 12:43 pm

HisMom wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Neuroscientists reverse autism symptoms Turning on a gene later in life can restore typical behavior in mice.
Quote:
There is more and more evidence showing that some of the defects are indeed reversible, giving hope that we can develop treatment for autistic patients in the future.”


They or you can deny this is eugenics all you want but the language of the scientists strongly suggest otherwise.
..

If "eugenics" will help my son communicate, learn, gain skills and live an independent life, then why not ? Autism isn't just about HFA, it is also about people on the opposite end of the spectrum whose quality of life and whose well being may be positively impacted by research like this.

HFAs who scream "autism pride" and condemn a research that might help individuals like my child are not doing themselves any favour. If they do not share my son's severe autism that affects every aspect of his existence, from understanding basic language to being able to use the toilet then they dont get to talk for him or to complain about research that might help him and others like him.

Not being potty trained at 6 or not saying a word at age 6 due to his autism is nothing to be proud of.

I hope this therapy is made available to LFA kids in my lifetime so I have the pleasure of my son's voice one day, some day, before I die.


As person who views autism as a condition with real deficits as well as different way of bieng, I very much hope I am wrong in my cynicism and that the cures and treatments going forward are truly voluntary and will help with or alleviate the nightmarish aspects associated with severe autism. I also desire that priorities of research go in a direction to help us understand what my "low functioning" brethren truly feel about thier lives. Because as of now be it parents or single adult aspies we are going on a whole bunch of assumptions that may or may not reflect reality.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 19 Feb 2016, 12:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.

HisMom
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19 Feb 2016, 12:44 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Based on history an experience and and experience and the money involved I choose not to believe thier statements of very limited intent. Because eugenics has very negative connotations they just can not announce we are going to start sterilizing people thought to be passing on Autism genes. In order to bring it eugenics back in favor they probably can not use the word eugenics. They have to start very small. Gene editing they claim and probably will cure or alleviate things like cancer. Not many people except a few cynical pattern thinkers like myself are going to oppose that. If you asked me pre 9/11 about something like the above I would have probably thought of it as the writings of a paranoid lunatic. But Americans have accepted things without a fight I never dreamed they would accept. The survallience state started with small impercetable steps well before 9/11. Lesson learned. The definition of autism has greatly expanded to help people, I see no reason why the definition of eugenics should not expand to prevent harm.

Expanding on what was said above it is equating Autism with things like cancer that will make people accept things or take a chance on things they would not normally accept. I myself think very early and intensive ABA designed to intercept and deflect autistic traits has more "promise" in eliminating autism or core Autistic traits then gene editing. But I won't summerly dismiss the chances of gene editing "accomplishing" the same thing because it seems too complicated at the moment.


What harm do you purport comes from reversing severe autism and vastly improving the quality of their lives ???


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Adamantium
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19 Feb 2016, 1:01 pm

Follow the money...
http://grantome.com/grant/NIH/R01-MH097104-03

Clearly the Trilateral Commission and their overlords from the Bilderberg Group are serving their alien overlords with area 51 technology and going all out to enable the nefarious Dr. Feng to

Quote:
To investigate the intrastriatal microcircuitry dysfunction in Shank3 mutant mice. (2) To determine the relative contributions of the direct and indirect pathway of the basal ganglia in repetitive behavior. (3) To dissect neural circuits involved in social interaction deficits in Shank3 mutant mice. Together, these studies may significantly enhance our understanding of neural circuitry mechanisms of autistic-like behaviors and may help to develop novel strategies for more effective treatment


Someday we may be in real trouble if we develop a greater understanding of how genetic regulation of protein production plays a role in neural signalling and repetitive behavior.

Ignorance is our only defense! Stamp out all knew knowledge today because who knows where it might lead???

/sarcasm


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Aristophanes
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19 Feb 2016, 1:20 pm

Adamantium wrote:
Follow the money...
http://grantome.com/grant/NIH/R01-MH097104-03

Clearly the Trilateral Commission and their overlords from the Bilderberg Group are serving their alien overlords with area 51 technology and going all out to enable the nefarious Dr. Feng to
Quote:
To investigate the intrastriatal microcircuitry dysfunction in Shank3 mutant mice. (2) To determine the relative contributions of the direct and indirect pathway of the basal ganglia in repetitive behavior. (3) To dissect neural circuits involved in social interaction deficits in Shank3 mutant mice. Together, these studies may significantly enhance our understanding of neural circuitry mechanisms of autistic-like behaviors and may help to develop novel strategies for more effective treatment


Someday we may be in real trouble if we develop a greater understanding of how genetic regulation of protein production plays a role in neural signalling and repetitive behavior.

Ignorance is our only defense! Stamp out all knew knowledge today because who knows where it might lead???

/sarcasm

I'm all for research. You want to find a cure for cancer, go on right ahead. You want to develop a rocket to go wherever in the solar system, all for it. You want to f**k with natural evolution, well there I have a problem because you're making fundamental decisions about what is and is not valuable to the macro organism of life itself. I'm sorry but you're not qualified to make that decision-- no one is. Any single one of us, hell even our giant metropolises, are small compared to the beast called life, there's no possible way a human, or humanity even, can have enough perspective to make decisions for all of it. The only real ignorance here is someone thinking they can fundamentally alter nature without any consequences.



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19 Feb 2016, 1:33 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Eliminating even a single gene from a pool is eugenics
this is such a broad definition that it makes the term meaningless, sorry. If it was defined that way, we've been practicing eugenics for millennia via selective breeding.



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19 Feb 2016, 1:39 pm

History has shown us that optional health-care practices end up becoming the future's mandatory practices. Medical ethicists will have a field day with this possibility.

Socially speaking, let us say that a certain percentage of autistic individuals choose to undergo gene therapy successfully (something about which I am doubtful). After a rapacious news media glorifies the successes, how soon before it and key political leaders demand, simultaneously, "saving public funds" and "'improving' lives" by making such therapy mandatory? Sure, initially, such a requirement would be tied to maintaining governmental or educational benefits. But, eventually, budget hawks will screech about the remaining autistic inidivduals who are "feeding at the tax-payer trough" while resisting a treatment that would benefit them and their financial caretakers.

We have seen this kind of "care" before.


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Aristophanes
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19 Feb 2016, 1:41 pm

Fugu wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
Eliminating even a single gene from a pool is eugenics
this is such a broad definition that it makes the term meaningless, sorry. If it was defined that way, we've been practicing eugenics for millennia via selective breeding.

Yeah, exactly, that should make you stop and think a bit.

edit: and again, it's not about the definition it's about the intent. If the intent is to eliminate something undesirable to the practitioner then the practitioner is performing eugenics, it really is that simple.



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19 Feb 2016, 1:49 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
I'm all for research. You want to find a cure for cancer, go on right ahead. You want to develop a rocket to go wherever in the solar system, all for it. You want to f**k with natural evolution, well there I have a problem because you're making fundamental decisions about what is and is not valuable to the macro organism of life itself. I'm sorry but you're not qualified to make that decision-- no one is. Any single one of us, hell even our giant metropolises, are small compared to the beast called life, there's no possible way a human, or humanity even, can have enough perspective to make decisions for all of it. The only real ignorance here is someone thinking they can fundamentally alter nature without any consequences.


I don't think you have any understanding of what this work is about. If it's not about the germ line, it has zero bearing on evolution.

What neither you nor ASPartOfMe seems to have considered is that researchers are required to make silly claims about the practical benefits of their research. This is almost always couched in vague claims about how the research might one day be used to fight some hot disease.

See for example, the claim here my italics added:
http://grantome.com/grant/NIH/R01-MH105519-02
Quote:
Public Health Relevance

The proposed research will establish a new regulatory relationship between miRNAs miR-9 and miR-139-5p with the FOXP1 and FOXP2 genes, and establish novel functions of miR-9 and miR-139-5p in the development and functions of a striatal circuit important for vocal learning behavior. The insights gained here will further our understanding of how genetic and environmental factors may contribute to many neural developmental disorders and mental illness related to the striatum. With further research, these miRNAs may lead to the development of novel diagnostic markers or therapeutic targets.


The researcher is interested in advancing basic knowledge, but needs to justify an application for funding with some utilitarian bs. This is because we live in the post Barry Goldwater era of congressional stupid interfering with science.
http://grants.nih.gov/grants/plain_language.htm

An honest answer to "what is the public health impact of this research?" will almost always be: "who knows, we have to see what we find out first." Most of the denizens of Congress and the Executive know less than nothing about basic science, so this doesn't make sense to them. So the researchers come up with this kind of thin nonsense "Novel therapies may someday emerge as we begin to learn basic facts about this area."

This is hardly the first nudge on a slippery slope leading to eugenics.


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