US helicopter attacks Iraqi school killing 7 children

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manalitwist
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08 May 2007, 6:22 pm

US Chopper Kills Seven Iraqi Children

Baghdad, May 8 (Prensa Latina) A US helicopter gunship attacked a public school in Diyala Province, killing seven children and wounding another three, police said.

No reason has been given for the attack on the Al Saada Elementary School and the US Army has made no comment.

At least 600,000 Iraqis have been killed since the US invasion and occupation started in 2001.

A US military detachment was ambushed by resistance forces in the same area of the province two days ago, with six US servicemen killed after their vehicle hit a homemade bomb.

These deaths brought the number of US soldiers killed in this Arab nation to 3,378 since 2003.

Meanwhile, the Pentagon announced sending an additional 10 active combat brigades, 35,000 troops, between August and December this year.

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID ... anguage=EN


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manalitwist
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08 May 2007, 6:24 pm

Who needs a V-Tech killer when youve got the good old US army to do the killing. :lol:


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jimservo
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08 May 2007, 6:52 pm

That 600,000 number is often repeated but it was way, way too high. There is very little information in this story. Who is the policemen? What it the source. There is already a blatant lie (the 600K number, the result of a fraudulent Lancent study.

Why would the U.S. army/air force gun down children? For what tactical purpose? It would only cause anger and resentment and breed anti-US sentiment regardless of who the dead are (Shi'a, Sunni, or Kurd). The war is already unpopular in America. More instability will only give rise to an urge to withdraw.

Perhaps, in theory, 7 children were killed by a U.S. helicopter (although insurgents have been known to stage war crimes). What evidence is there that is was intentional?

It was stated that the U.S. did not "make comment." Considering that the journalist has already written the war has caused "600,000" dead perhaps the military, admittedly inept at public relations as it is, feels they will not get a fair shake. Perhaps they do not have any information. Perhaps, as the press often does in America, they called shortly before they would write the story, asked, "Do you have any comment?" The army had no information, or perhaps they just called the wrong people or didn't call at all, and proceeded to run the story immediately.



TheResistance
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08 May 2007, 6:54 pm

Disgusting!!. I've seen some pretty sick videos on US troops randomly shooting Iraqi civilians and giving a high five to each other afterwards. the kind of people that join the amry do not value life I'm convinced of it.



TheMachine1
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08 May 2007, 7:00 pm

TheResistance wrote:
Disgusting!!. I've seen some pretty sick videos on US troops randomly shooting Iraqi civilians and giving a high five to each other afterwards. the kind of people that join the army do not value life I'm convinced of it.


My dad joined the US Army in the early 60's but he is totality against the current war.



jimservo
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08 May 2007, 7:04 pm

TheResistance wrote:
Disgusting!!. I've seen some pretty sick videos on US troops randomly shooting Iraqi civilians and giving a high five to each other afterwards. the kind of people that join the amry do not value life I'm convinced of it.


Quote:
During his 35 years in the Army National Guard, Holton has been a Korean linguist and an interrogator in both Desert Storm and Operation Iraqi Freedom. While in Iraq, he was responsible for interrogating 17 Iraqi generals who surrendered on the first day of the war. He then moved to Baghdad where he worked with Iraqi sources in tracking terrorists, weapons dealers and counterfeiters.

Holton’s experience in Iraq is told in his book Saving Babylon: The Heart of an Army Interrogator in Iraq. In the book, he provides a refreshing look at the war and the people who served there. He describes interrogation tactics based more in kindness and trust rather than in torture and toughness.

His concern for the Iraqi people, and particularly the children of Iraq, led him to create Operation Give (www.operationgive.org), a humanitarian organization which delivers toys, school supplies and medical assistance to the children and families of Iraq and other areas of the world devastated by war or natural disaster.


Donate here



manalitwist
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08 May 2007, 7:09 pm

600000 divided by 4 years works out at 400 per day throughout Iraq which as a ratio is equivelant to 100 per day in Baghdad which is pretty much what we are seeing at the moment.

Bear in mind that as well as bullet and shrapnel deaths there is also a percentage of the population dying through war related causes such as lack of medical care and medicines, malnutrition and stress.

If the most vulrenable 1 pc of the population died per year then that works out to 250 000 per year. Here we are talking about the illest, youngest and oldest.

Even if you take it that due to no national infrastructure including employment and dont forget the heat, the heat my man would roast you alive. No electricity thanks to your invasion to cool people and food...

Dont foret the lack of clean water after your glorious air force bombed the water works...Dont forget the untreated sewage again courtesy of the good ol USA and add into the mix the 115 degree heat and add to that no electricity. But the jimservo id have thought a man of your inteligence might have worked all of this out. Perhaps you are an artificial inteligence or perhaps you are brainwashed. I can help you you know...

Sorry to burst your little bubble and i hope ive no t made you feel bad or anything.


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Last edited by manalitwist on 08 May 2007, 7:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Anubis
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08 May 2007, 7:12 pm

If it is true, it is an outrage. Yet again, it seems unlikely that an Army pilot would do such a thing and get away with it. If it was staged by insurgents, then such people are traitors. Seems likely, because of the deep divisions in Iraq. But to attack a school and innocent children... Iraqi insurgents act more like monstrous terrorists, even to their own countrymen.


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the-over-analyzed
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08 May 2007, 7:14 pm

manalitwist
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08 May 2007, 7:17 pm

Anubis wrote:
If it is true, it is an outrage. Yet again, it seems unlikely that an Army pilot would do such a thing and get away with it. If it was staged by insurgents, then such people are traitors. Seems likely, because of the deep divisions in Iraq. But to attack a school and innocent children... Iraqi insurgents act more like monstrous terrorists, even to their own countrymen.


In the words of a british SAS officer who refused to serve any further, the Americans regard the Iraqis as Untermenchen. They do not even bother to enquire wether there are children inside during a school day they just fire away.

Personaly i do not think it was an accident but cold and deliberate murder.


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manalitwist
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08 May 2007, 7:18 pm

the-over-analyzed wrote:


Thanks.


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jimservo
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08 May 2007, 7:26 pm

Anubis wrote:
If it is true, it is an outrage. Yet again, it seems unlikely that an Army pilot would do such a thing and get away with it.


I don't entirely dismiss that perhaps there could be some rogue murderer or ever a crew. Obviously, there was the Mai Lai massacre (whose leader should NOT have had his sentence communicated despite the protests from both the right and the left), and those things will occur (they certainly did in World War II, and there is a trial underway for some soldiers re: Haditha). However, the problem is this is from the air. I mean, people get orders to commit specific actions and certainly people can make mistakes but these guys are on audio and have gun cameras. This would pose more of a problem. Rogue murders are more likely, I think and bearing I am no expert, in ground operations.

The BBC link

Quote:
The school was said to have been hit when the aircraft returned fire.

The officer said police had spoken to eyewitnesses and that six children had been killed and six injured but the figures have not been independently confirmed.


It's worth noting that the Iraqi police are filled with insurgent sympathizers, which makes things more difficult. There are also insurgent sympathizers among the people the press use as their sources.

Needless to say, the death of children in a war zone is a tragedy. It is said, however, in the preceding paragraph that "helicopter was shot at from the ground." This action in itself is a war crime. The international agreements the United States has signed makes it clear that if they are engaged with perpetrators of such war crimes they are permitted to defend themselves (and hence not have a tactical disadvantage).

Still, the US contact says

Quote:
A spokesman for the US forces in Iraq, Lt-Col Chris Garver, said the US tried to do everything possible to avoid civilian casualties, which was why it was taking the reports seriously and conducting an investigation.


Technically he doesn't even have to say this at all assuming they were indeed fired upon. That the US would investigate, put vital resources into such concerns is a testimony that the US does not go around, as a policy, flagrantly committing war crimes.



manalitwist
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08 May 2007, 7:39 pm

You are too naive jimservo that you think that the civilians being deliberately slaughtered by US forces are accidental or rogue. It is happening up and down Iraq, daily.

90 percent of the population support the resistance in fact for they are the population.

In a court of law one would require proof that the murderers word is true. Of course they would say they were shot at first for gods sake


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jimservo
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08 May 2007, 7:57 pm

Re: 655,000 war dead claim. You switched it over to malnutrition, ex cetera, but that wasn't what the survey claimed. The survey claimed violent deaths.

Flaws of the survey:

Quote:
After doing survey research in Iraq for nearly two years, I was surprised to read that a study by a group from Johns Hopkins University claims that 655,000 Iraqis have died as a result of the war. Don't get me wrong, there have been far too many deaths in Iraq by anyone's measure; some of them have been friends of mine. But the Johns Hopkins tally is wildly at odds with any numbers I have seen in that country. Survey results frequently have a margin of error of plus or minus 3% or 5%--not 1200%...

the key to the validity of cluster sampling is to use enough cluster points. In their 2006 report, "Mortality after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: a cross-sectional sample survey," the Johns Hopkins team says it used 47 cluster points for their sample of 1,849 interviews. This is astonishing: I wouldn't survey a junior high school, no less an entire country, using only 47 cluster points.

Neither would anyone else. For its 2004 survey of Iraq, the United Nations Development Program (UNDP) used 2,200 cluster points of 10 interviews each for a total sample of 21,688. True, interviews are expensive and not everyone has the U.N.'s bank account. However, even for a similarly sized sample, that is an extraordinarily small number of cluster points. A 2005 survey conducted by ABC News, Time magazine, the BBC, NHK and Der Spiegel used 135 cluster points with a sample size of 1,711--almost three times that of the Johns Hopkins team for 93% of the sample size.

What happens when you don't use enough cluster points in a survey? You get crazy results when compared to a known quantity, or a survey with more cluster points. There was a perfect example of this two years ago. The UNDP's survey, in April and May 2004, estimated between 18,000 and 29,000 Iraqi civilian deaths due to the war. This survey was conducted four months prior to another, earlier study by the Johns Hopkins team, which used 33 cluster points and estimated between 69,000 and 155,000 civilian deaths--four to five times as high as the UNDP survey, which used 66 times the cluster points.

The 2004 survey by the Johns Hopkins group was itself methodologically suspect--and the one they just published even more so.


...

OK, 90% of the population support the "resistance" (what resistance? al-Qaida? the Mahdi Army? ect...). What poll backs this? 70% of Iraqis voted in the December 2005 elections. What percentage of these support overthrowing the government?



Jacob_Landshire
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09 May 2007, 9:58 pm

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Holton’s experience in Iraq is told in his book Saving Babylon: The Heart of an Army Interrogator in Iraq. In the book, he provides a refreshing look at the war and the people who served there. He describes interrogation tactics based more in kindness and trust rather than in torture and toughness.


That is some funny stuff. I had a good laugh.

Here is his pretty book.
Image

I bet he didn't put any of these pictures in his nice book.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Isolated incidents of course. Everything else is based on "kindness and trust."

Image

If anyone came to my town and caused this type of misery I would be looking for some payback regardless of how good their intentions are.

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They won't be getting any of my money.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blackwater Mows 'em Down
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpbEjdwLQgo[/youtube]


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jimservo
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09 May 2007, 11:24 pm

Jacob_Landshire wrote:
That is some funny stuff. I had a good laugh.


Do you believe that Paul Holton's charity operation is less then legitimate simply because he was a member of the United States military or an interrogator?

You displayed pictures from the Abu Graib prison abuse scandal. The perpetrators of that scandal have been tried and punished for their actions by a military court. Yes, I call the incident isolate because there is no evidence of any other like it at this time. Considering the amount of press attention that the Abu Graib scandal got (and I should note the Pentagon released a statement that it had launched an investigation into abuse before the newspapers and television ran those photographs), the likelihood the media would simply ignore another incident like that is remote in the least.

I have never denied civilian fatalities, and injuries occur, and they are indeed terrible. However, most of those civilian causalities are as a result of attacks by various terrorist insurgent groups (most notably al-Qaeda).

I am not entirely sure what the video is attempting to show. It shows active combat operations, including the use of helicopters. The men on the ground, the title refers to them as employees of the military contractor Blackwater, refer to their opponents as members of the Mahdi militia, which certainly does exist. The references they make to the ease of their battle does not mean they should not be engaged in it; in warfare as long as hostile forces opposed to you do not surrender it is valid to continue fighting them as otherwise they can regroup later to attack. The is especially relevant in counterinsurgency warfare where can seep in and out of the civilian population.