Page 1 of 2 [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

DarthMetaKnight
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,105
Location: The Infodome

09 Jan 2018, 5:02 pm



I honestly don't know how to feel about this.

On one hand, I really don't like those hate sites.

On the other hand, if hate speech is banned, these people might never realize why they are wrong. They might just assume that they are being unjustly censored for telling the truth. I do know that all forms of authority must be legitimate.

Let me hear your opinion. I honestly don't know what to think about this.


_________________
Synthetic carbo-polymers got em through man. They got em through mouse. They got through, and we're gonna get out.
-Roostre

READ THIS -> https://represent.us/


Mr_Miner
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

Joined: 24 Sep 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 230

10 Jan 2018, 9:54 pm

The censorship is certainly justification for Nazis to be victims in Germany. If you ask them it's a conspiracy to suppress the truth why can they not talk about it? The irony being that Hitler was not for free speech. If the world was actuly run their way well you are an enemy of the state so you die. And the Nazis are not currently in power so where does that leave you? They want laws to protect them they do not even believe in unless it suits them. NOT free speech at all.

I am 100% in favor of people being able to have unpopular opinions it is the only way for real debate to happen. But I do support the German laws. Some things are dangerous and Nazis should not be tolerated.



Esmerelda Weatherwax
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Sep 2017
Age: 71
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,749

10 Jan 2018, 11:08 pm

The issue, I think, is that sociopaths recognize no authority other than power. Appeals to basic decency and to the common good have no impact whatsoever. Therefore, the only way to establish any real control over sociopaths is to over-power them, literally. Nothing else ultimately works.

This is a brutal thing for empathic individuals to believe, and their very reluctance to believe it works against them massively. Sociopaths regard kindness as weakness. They see compassion as contemptible. There is absolutely no way to reach them via those routes. But if the price they pay for detectable indulgence of their sociopathy is sufficiently high, then they are likely to decide that social conformity is more to their advantage. (I believe that highly affiiliative cultures do constrain their sociopathic members via a similar "calculus".)

Having said that - not all practitioners of sociopathic creeds are sociopaths. As with any other cult, some of the members can be deprogrammed. But they first have to be separated from the cult and its influence.

I'm not surprised to see the Germans doing this. They see what's happening in the States, and they have a historical basis for both comparison and extrapolation. If "never again" is to be anything more than a catchphrase, there must be a will to act, when "again" starts to manifest itself.


_________________
"I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good people and the bad people," said the man. "You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides."
-- Terry Pratchett, Guards! Guards!


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

11 Jan 2018, 1:48 am

I think it's hard for us Americans to understand such anti-hate speech laws, considering that we consider freedom of speech and press to be the cornerstones of free government. Then again, we haven't had the same historical experience as Germany has had.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Wolfram87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Feb 2015
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,976
Location: Sweden

11 Jan 2018, 7:15 am

Whole-heartedly against. Banning speech like this is short-sightedly treating symptoms without pursuing a cure for the underlying disease, not to mention handing the nazis a exactly what they want; a (regrettably) legitimate way to claim victimhood.


Furthermore:

Step 1: ban nazis

Step 2: label all your political oponents as nazis

Step 3: profit.


_________________
I'm bored out of my skull, let's play a different game. Let's pay a visit down below and cast the world in flame.


JohnPowell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2016
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,806
Location: Palestine

11 Jan 2018, 12:06 pm

There's no such thing as 'hate speech'. Germany are shaming themselves by doing this.


_________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"


JohnPowell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2016
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,806
Location: Palestine

11 Jan 2018, 12:07 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I think it's hard for us Americans to understand such anti-hate speech laws, considering that we consider freedom of speech and press to be the cornerstones of free government. Then again, we haven't had the same historical experience as Germany has had.


Yes you have. Your country was founded on the biggest genocide in history.


_________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"


ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 39,637
Location: Long Island, New York

11 Jan 2018, 12:21 pm

Hate speech is a legitimate concept but the term has been so over applied as to render it practically meaningless.


_________________
“Self Acceptance is a process not a performance”
“You are autistic enough. And you always have been”

Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity.


League_Girl
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 4 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 27,317
Location: Pacific Northwest

11 Jan 2018, 12:54 pm

I am on the fence about it. I do hate hate speech but if we outlawed it, what else do we outlaw and where does it end? Someone can make a comment and another person can feel threatened by it because they felt judged so that can be interpreted as hate speech. Then pretty soon people will be living in fear fearing they will offend someone and their comment being interpreted as hate speech. I think the rates of social anxiety would go up.


_________________
Son: Diagnosed w/anxiety and ADHD. Also academic delayed and ASD lv 1.

Daughter: NT, no diagnoses. Possibly OCD. Is very private about herself.


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

11 Jan 2018, 2:06 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I think it's hard for us Americans to understand such anti-hate speech laws, considering that we consider freedom of speech and press to be the cornerstones of free government. Then again, we haven't had the same historical experience as Germany has had.


Yes you have. Your country was founded on the biggest genocide in history.


And your country wasn't? And I'm not referring to "Palestine."


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 71
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

11 Jan 2018, 5:11 pm

It's a permanent conundrum.


In a democracy you have to preserve free speech, even the freedom to speak in advocacy of a creed that demands the abolition of free speech, and the abolition of democracy itself.

Germany right after the war was treated as an exception. The western allies fostered the revival of Germany as a democracy, but saw fit to make one exception to freedom of speech and free association: the Nazi party was outlawed, and the symbol of the Nazi party was also outlawed (which is why German neo Nazis today use a different flag as a stand in for the swastika, they wave the Stars and Bars battle flag of the American Confederacy. Right after the war the allies were probably right to do that. But does the modern government of the democratic reunited Germany need to continue with such bans three generations after the war? Its an open question. But I think that is for the Germans, and not for me to answer.



Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

11 Jan 2018, 5:11 pm

League_Girl wrote:
I am on the fence about it. I do hate hate speech but if we outlawed it, what else do we outlaw and where does it end? Someone can make a comment and another person can feel threatened by it because they felt judged so that can be interpreted as hate speech. Then pretty soon people will be living in fear fearing they will offend someone and their comment being interpreted as hate speech. I think the rates of social anxiety would go up.


Agreed, laws like that are a slippery slope with way too much room for abuse. In effect, they are creating the same fear in regards to speech and expression that people in Nazi Gernany lived under.


_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson


JohnPowell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2016
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,806
Location: Palestine

12 Jan 2018, 2:43 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Hate speech is a legitimate concept but the term has been so over applied as to render it practically meaningless.


It isn't. It's just a phrase pushed by the political establishment to shut people up.


_________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"


JohnPowell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2016
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,806
Location: Palestine

12 Jan 2018, 2:48 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I think it's hard for us Americans to understand such anti-hate speech laws, considering that we consider freedom of speech and press to be the cornerstones of free government. Then again, we haven't had the same historical experience as Germany has had.


Yes you have. Your country was founded on the biggest genocide in history.


And your country wasn't? And I'm not referring to "Palestine."


Correct, it wasn't. People from the UK were among the murderers though.


_________________
"No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?"


Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

12 Jan 2018, 3:03 am

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I think it's hard for us Americans to understand such anti-hate speech laws, considering that we consider freedom of speech and press to be the cornerstones of free government. Then again, we haven't had the same historical experience as Germany has had.


Yes you have. Your country was founded on the biggest genocide in history.


And your country wasn't? And I'm not referring to "Palestine."


Correct, it wasn't. People from the UK were among the murderers though.


Gotta wonder if the Welsh see it that way.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 39,637
Location: Long Island, New York

12 Jan 2018, 11:16 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
I think it's hard for us Americans to understand such anti-hate speech laws, considering that we consider freedom of speech and press to be the cornerstones of free government. Then again, we haven't had the same historical experience as Germany has had.

We do?

A chilling study shows how hostile college students are toward free speech
Quote:
Astonishingly, half said that snuffing out upsetting speech — rather than, presumably, rebutting or even ignoring it — would be appropriate. Democrats were more likely than Republicans to find this response acceptable (62 percent to 39 percent), and men were more likely than women (57 percent to 47 percent). Even so, sizable shares of all groups agreed.

It gets even worse.

Respondents were also asked if it would be acceptable for a student group to use violence to prevent that same controversial speaker from talking. Here, 19 percent said yes

There were no statistically significant differences in response by political party affiliation. Men, however, were three times as likely as women to endorse using physical force to silence controversial views (30 percent of men vs. 10 percent of women).


Older people and Republicans, threatening free speech
Quote:
Take YouGov’s October poll about what kinds of books ought to be banned from various libraries. On nearly every type of potentially controversial book YouGov asked about, and for nearly every type of library, older and Republican respondents were more likely to support censorship.

Half of respondents age 65 or older thought such books should be banned from elementary school libraries.

This poll asked a national sample of Americans whether U.S. colleges and universities should be a place where people refrain from using language that is hurtful and offensive. Democrats were more likely than Republicans to say they agreed strongly or somewhat (60 percent vs. 45 percent, respectively). But older people were more likely than younger people to say colleges should be a place where people avoid hurtful or offensive language:

What about books containing explicit racism, which one might assume millennials and Democrats are more sensitive to shielding children from, given “trigger warnings” and whatnot?

In K-12 libraries, seniors and Republicans are still more open to censorship

For example, a series of questions asked about whether executives and employees should be fired for holding various beliefs or participating in various kinds of political dissent. Liberals were more likely to support firing for racist beliefs and so on; but conservatives were more likely to support firing for political dissent such as flag-burning.

Echoing our president, a majority of Republicans says that Americans who burn the American flag — a constitutionally protected act — should have their citizenship revoked.

Speaking of flagrant violations of the First Amendment, nearly half of Republicans would favor a law banning the building of mosques in their community.

Relatedly, in fact, a recent Pew Research Center global survey found that a majority of Americans were supportive of nondemocratic forms of government, such as rule by the military or by a “a strong leader who can make decisions without interference from parliament or the courts.”


_________________
“Self Acceptance is a process not a performance”
“You are autistic enough. And you always have been”

Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity.