House approves 5 billion for Trump’s wall
Biscuitman
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kokopelli
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It's still not gonna happen because the bill has to pass the Senate with a filibuster proof majority. The wall will be completely ineffective, this is just one giant waste of money for symbolism's sake. As I said it's not a huge issue for me, mainly because the politicians waste a good amount of our money already so this is just the status quo really, but issue is that it won't actually solve the problem, and I'm skeptical it'll even dent the numbers. As long as there is an incentive to be here (job/benefits) they'll find a way around the wall.
Exactly. The wall is cosmetic and will have little effect on anything. It's just another multi-billion dollar boondoggle that just adds to the real problem facing the US -- the massive out of control debt and the spending that caused it.
kokopelli
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Trump painted himself into a corner with his ultimatum. There is no reason for the Democrats to vote for the wall and every reason not to vote for the wall.
Trump's ultimatum to the Democrats gives him full ownership of any government shutdown that results. He may blame it on the Democrats, but the US citizens, other than the crazier of his fans, will blame him. That could cost him reelection in 2020.
And if Trump went ahead and signed the continuing resolution that was already given to him, then he has just shown that he head to back down to the Democrats. It would make him look weak and ineffectual.
kokopelli
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In analyzing the financial impact of building the wall, this is immaterial. What is material is what would have been the present value of the costs to taxpayers related to those illegal immigrants who did not cross because of the wall. It will have no affect on the cost of supporting illegal immigrants who are already here or who cross by some other means.
If I understand it correctly, we have a much bigger problem with people overstaying their visas than we do with people crossing the border.
I bet these people don't want me in their country either. I should start a bogus crowd funding campaign to wall in my house.
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Too complex to calculate really. There have been literally 100's of reports on the issue and there's no consensus because it's such a complex issue. Virtually any information you find will be partisan in nature, so I'll drop the wikipedia article that gives an overview of the popular ones. Economic impact of illegal immigration in the United States
Edit: part of what makes it hard to calculate where other large/complex issues are not (think healthcare) is the undocumented nature of it-- there's a lot of uncertainty because most of the numbers used as the basis for the calculations are estimates.
Example: we're not sure exactly how much money is earned by illegal immigrants in their jobs, we estimate there are between 10.5 and 12.5 million illegal immigrants currently, we don't know what they're getting paid because they don't have to file taxes (obviously, being undocumented), so we estimate it's slightly lower than minimum wage. That's a lot of uncertainty. Compare that for average personal expenditure on healthcare-- we've got a fairly good idea there were 3.5 trillion dollars spent last year due to tax documentation, and from social security audits and the census we're fairly certain there are 325 million citizens here thus average healthcare expenditure is a little over 10k per person. The underlying variables on illegal immigration are not so certain, which makes virtually every estimate unreliable.
I see what you mean about partisan. I did look at the wiki article. It seems proponents for illegal immigration posit that the sales tax illegal immigrants pay buying products while they're in the U.S. more than offsets any costs involved in providing them housing, healthcare, food assistance and education and other public services. Unless I'm understanding it incorrectly part of the wiki made it seem like taxpayers actually financially benefit from every person who enters the U.S. illegally and resides here.
Too complex to calculate really. There have been literally 100's of reports on the issue and there's no consensus because it's such a complex issue. Virtually any information you find will be partisan in nature, so I'll drop the wikipedia article that gives an overview of the popular ones. Economic impact of illegal immigration in the United States
Edit: part of what makes it hard to calculate where other large/complex issues are not (think healthcare) is the undocumented nature of it-- there's a lot of uncertainty because most of the numbers used as the basis for the calculations are estimates.
Example: we're not sure exactly how much money is earned by illegal immigrants in their jobs, we estimate there are between 10.5 and 12.5 million illegal immigrants currently, we don't know what they're getting paid because they don't have to file taxes (obviously, being undocumented), so we estimate it's slightly lower than minimum wage. That's a lot of uncertainty. Compare that for average personal expenditure on healthcare-- we've got a fairly good idea there were 3.5 trillion dollars spent last year due to tax documentation, and from social security audits and the census we're fairly certain there are 325 million citizens here thus average healthcare expenditure is a little over 10k per person. The underlying variables on illegal immigration are not so certain, which makes virtually every estimate unreliable.
I see what you mean about partisan. I did look at the wiki article. It seems proponents for illegal immigration posit that the sales tax illegal immigrants pay buying products while they're in the U.S. more than offsets any costs involved in providing them housing, healthcare, food assistance and education and other public services. Unless I'm understanding it incorrectly part of the wiki made it seem like taxpayers actually financially benefit from every person who enters the U.S. illegally and resides here.
Like I said, it's so partisan I couldn't tell you and I'm generally pretty good at seeing past BS. It's just too convoluted and complex to know what the actual financial impacts are. I work in agriculture so illegal immigration directly effects me and my wage, but I also from a purely logical standpoint, can't deny that illegals here make contributions. I also grew up around Hispanics, a man I consider close to a brother is one, and the racial aspects underpinning some of the hard right's take on this issue highly disturbs me. That's why I like to keep solutions firmly in the realm of economics: s**t hammer employers that hire them = they won't hire them = no jobs here = no reason to come in the first place.
Biscuitman
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He's got money for the wall. He's ending wars. Neocons and liberals are going insane
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I bet these people don't want me in their country either. I should start a bogus crowd funding campaign to wall in my house.
I'm starting a GoFundMe page to finance my cabin in the mountains.
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I do think a shutdown during the Christmas season is bad if government employees won't be getting their paychecks temporarily.
I worked with a woman whose husband has a federal government job. His position was affected by the shutdown that lasted for over two weeks in 2013 under Obama. In his particular case, he absolutely loved it for having the time off, but also (and I did NOT know this), because apparently at least in his case, every single day that he didn't work, every single day he was off work during that shutdown he got paid for retroactively. That is true. He actually got paid workdays he was not able to go into work. In regard to compensation he did not lose a penny due to the shutdown.
i really hope you never honestly believed that.
No, I was being sarcastic. We all knew pre election that Mexico would not pay for a wall, and that a wall my well not even be built.
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m
Plan? No, he was just feeding you BS to placate you so no one would question the cost. Anybody with half a brain knew it would be the U.S. tax payer funding the wall.
That looks like extortion.
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"Standing on a well-chilled cinder, we see the fading of the suns, and try to recall the vanished brilliance of the origin of the worlds."
-Georges Lemaitre
"I fly through hyperspace, in my green computer interface"
-Gem Tos
Plan? No, he was just feeding you BS to placate you so no one would question the cost. Anybody with half a brain knew it would be the U.S. tax payer funding the wall.
He had a business plan. Probably similar to business strategies he's used in the past. It being practical or workable on the much larger scale involved in building the wall is another matter.
Last edited by EzraS on 21 Dec 2018, 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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