Spain is to roll out a universal basic income (UBI)

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Sahn
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07 Apr 2020, 9:56 am

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 49336.html

Spain is to roll out a universal basic income (UBI) “as soon as possible” to mitigate the impact of coronavirus.

Minister for economic affairs Nadia Calvino told Spanish broadcaster La Sexta on Sunday night that the move was intended to help families during the pandemic.

But Ms Calvino, who is also deputy prime minister, said the government’s ambition was that UBI could become something that “stays forever, that becomes a structural instrument, a permanent instrument”.

Fnord
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07 Apr 2020, 9:58 am

domineekee wrote:

... Ms Calvino, who is also deputy prime minister, said the government’s ambition was that UBI could become something that “stays forever, that becomes a structural instrument, a permanent instrument”.

Then the headline should instead be: "Spain Rolls Out The Instrument of Its Own Destruction."

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EzraS
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07 Apr 2020, 10:13 am

Fnord wrote:

domineekee wrote:

Then the headline should instead be: "Spain Rolls Out The Instrument of Its Own Destruction."

I suppose governments and the public are going to have to see this sort of system fail within their own time before they realize it won't work.

Karamazov
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07 Apr 2020, 10:14 am

Fnord wrote:

domineekee wrote:

Then the headline should instead be: "Spain Rolls Out The Instrument of Its Own Destruction."

I’ve got my doubts about the UBI concept too, and I’m definitely sceptical about Spain as a place to try it out in: do they have sufficient averaged productivity per capita to sustain it even in the short-term?
Impression I’ve got from the two times I’ve been there is probably not: but that is totally subjective.

Velorum
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07 Apr 2020, 10:18 am

This makes no sense and can be little more than short term politics.

Spains GDP is significantly lower than Italy's and thats not in too healthy a state.

Its simply unsustainable.

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Sahn
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07 Apr 2020, 12:58 pm

Fnord wrote:

domineekee wrote:

Then the headline should instead be: "Spain Rolls Out The Instrument of Its Own Destruction."

There's no tax havens for the rich people to escape to. :wink:

goldfish21
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08 Apr 2020, 3:33 am

EzraS wrote:

Fnord wrote:

domineekee wrote:

Then the headline should instead be: "Spain Rolls Out The Instrument of Its Own Destruction."

I suppose governments and the public are going to have to see this sort of system fail within their own time before they realize it won't work.

Same question to both of you:

How do you figure it’s bound to fail?

I mean, surely there are economists, fiscal, and financial experts working on such a plan and they’d figure out what the sweet spot was that their economy could support, no?

I read your instant negativity as the product of being citizens of a country that has done an excellent job of convincing it’s people that there’s endless money for war but no money available for social programs.

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magz
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08 Apr 2020, 4:18 am

I'm very much interested in how it develops.

My bet: the economy suffers + immigration crisis 2.0. The idea doesn't live long after that but is probably not given up on spot, rather adding restrictions and lowering the income so it ultimately doesn't fit its original purpose.

I wonder why I never saw anyone discussing the immigration aspect of the UBI idea. UBI attracts the less desired kind of immigrants - those not interested in working for their new country, just in milking it.
Additionally, as in Spain those milking-only immigrants are likely to come from Africa - purely because of poverty distribution in the region - racism is likely to grow among working class Spaniards, with elites attempting to silence it instead of understanding the underlying conflict.

Maybe some day the humanity would afford universal income but it's not now.

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EzraS
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08 Apr 2020, 4:41 am

goldfish21 wrote:

EzraS wrote:

Fnord wrote:

domineekee wrote:

Then the headline should instead be: "Spain Rolls Out The Instrument of Its Own Destruction."

I suppose governments and the public are going to have to see this sort of system fail within their own time before they realize it won't work.

There's no point in asking me since you consider my opinions to be worthless.

TheRobotLives
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08 Apr 2020, 4:43 am

magz wrote:

those not interested in working for their new country, just in milking it.

everyone will "milk it"

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Sahn
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08 Apr 2020, 5:08 am

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/spain-universal-basic-income-coronavirus-yang-ubi-permanent-first-europe-2020-4%3famp

It's not immediately clear what basic income could look like in Spain, given the proposal appears to be in its early stages. But it would likely be aimed at providing economic relief for low-income Spaniards.

Jose Luis Escriva, the country's Social Security minister, told the Spanish newspaper La Vanguardia in an interview published Saturday the measure would represent "a permanent safety net for the most vulnerable."

That would differ from universal basic income, which entails regular no-strings-attached cash payments to every household.

Quote:

Correction: An earlier version of this story said Spain was set to introduce universal basic income. The story has been updated to clarify the proposal is focused on providing money to low-income Spaniards

EzraS
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08 Apr 2020, 5:15 am

Basically welfare. That certainly sounds more feasible.

Karamazov
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08 Apr 2020, 5:15 am

domineekee wrote:

Quote:

Ah, so they’ve got something more like our income support/working tax credits system in its pre-2010 incarnation in mind: that sounds much more credible in theory, hope they get their figures and predictions close enough to correct to make it viable.

Sahn
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08 Apr 2020, 5:39 am

Karamazov wrote:

domineekee wrote:

Quote:

Something like that.

Is this another nail in the coffin for the EU perhaps?

magz
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08 Apr 2020, 5:45 am

TheRobotLives wrote:

magz wrote:

those not interested in working for their new country, just in milking it.

everyone will "milk it"

Yes. What I'm talking about are people who come to this country only to milk it.
Migrants come in all kinds and flavors but politics of a given country can attract or repulse particular groups.
ICU and other forms of giving a lot of money for nothing attract those who want to do nothing.

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kraftiekortie
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08 Apr 2020, 6:11 am

There was 29% unemployment in Spain like 3 years ago.

I know some people who were laid off got as much as a years’ severance if they were long-term employees with their company.

Let’s hope this “Basic Guaranteed Income” doesn’t lead to people opting for that instead of a job which might pay a similar amount.

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