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Fnord
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11 Aug 2020, 9:23 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
If this blast was the result of a conspiracy, then it is fair to say that the conspirators were all somewhat less than competent ... unless their goal was to blow up the pier, the warehouses, and half of Beautiful Downtown Beirut.
There's two kinds of negligence in the Middle East: The kind due to laziness or stupidity, and the other is due to forced hushing.  The suspected murder of that colonel makes me more leaning to the 2nd possibility.
Perhaps ... I mean, I cannot refute your opinion on the colonel's death.  Fertilizer stored for seven years in a drafty warehouse on a pier, however, can be explained away by laziness, stupidity, and/or Lebanon's bureaucracy that makes our DMV look like a fast-food drive-through.


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11 Aug 2020, 9:31 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
blooiejagwa wrote:
Fnord wrote:
If this blast was the result of a conspiracy, then it is fair to say that the conspirators were all somewhat less than competent ... unless their goal was to blow up the pier, the warehouses, and half of Beautiful Downtown Beirut.
Why wouldn't that be someones goal?  Isn't the point of such people to ruin nice things for everyone and cause chaos and anarchy?
Yes ... but the ammonium nitrate fertilizer had been sitting there for nearly seven years before it detonated.  If terrorism was a conspirator's goal, then they could have detonated the fertilizer as soon as it entered the warehouse.  Of course, this does not preclude the idea that this was more an act of opportunity than an act that was deliberately planned... "Hey, Amil!  Look!  I bet we could set this stuff off and make a really big 'BOOM'!  Whaddaya think; you with me?"
That's the not conspiracy theory being suggested; I am not saying it is there to blow up Beirut.
It may have been intended for IED manufacture elsewhere and just got stuck in Beirut due to some bureaucratic snafu.  Then, either someone eventually saw an opportunity or some of the material somehow spontaneously combusted ... maybe.  That portion which did not blow up was probably scattered all over Beirut and into the Mediterranean Sea, if it did not burn in mid-air (explaining the reddish-brown mushroom cloud over the blast site).

It does seem at this point in time that there are too many puzzle-pieces to form a single coherent image.  For all we know, it may have been negligence, stupidity, bureaucracy, and a deliberate triggering act all together!  We may never know for certain.


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blooiejagwa
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11 Aug 2020, 9:49 am

Fnord wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
blooiejagwa wrote:
Fnord wrote:
If this blast was the result of a conspiracy, then it is fair to say that the conspirators were all somewhat less than competent ... unless their goal was to blow up the pier, the warehouses, and half of Beautiful Downtown Beirut.
Why wouldn't that be someones goal?  Isn't the point of such people to ruin nice things for everyone and cause chaos and anarchy?
Yes ... but the ammonium nitrate fertilizer had been sitting there for nearly seven years before it detonated.  If terrorism was a conspirator's goal, then they could have detonated the fertilizer as soon as it entered the warehouse.  Of course, this does not preclude the idea that this was more an act of opportunity than an act that was deliberately planned... "Hey, Amil!  Look!  I bet we could set this stuff off and make a really big 'BOOM'!  Whaddaya think; you with me?"
That's the not conspiracy theory being suggested; I am not saying it is there to blow up Beirut.
It may have been intended for IED manufacture elsewhere and just got stuck in Beirut due to some bureaucratic snafu.  Then, either someone eventually saw an opportunity or some of the material somehow spontaneously combusted ... maybe.  That portion which did not blow up was probably scattered all over Beirut and into the Mediterranean Sea, if it did not burn in mid-air (explaining the reddish-brown mushroom cloud over the blast site).

It does seem at this point in time that there are too many puzzle-pieces to form a single coherent image.  For all we know, it may have been negligence, stupidity, bureaucracy, and a deliberate triggering act all together!  We may never know for certain.


Well... Of course

We never could KNOW except based on a pattern and on what certain powerful groups may have stated again and again and and conducted in the past perhaps over a period of time leaving plenty of evidence as to how they operate. Hency why ppl like my brother get paid to know and link things and form a coherent picture for anti terrorist think tanks.

And even then nobody can say for certain and anyone who does may be discredited, barely covered by media, or killed.


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Jakki
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11 Aug 2020, 11:11 am

Okay. , having followed the little bit of information by NPR about Israel wishing to annex more of the West Bank
Which is part of Lebanon , earlier this month . So am quite sure that Israel would be knowledgeable of this huge
Store house of potential explosive . And consequently after the explosion , the current Lebanese government
Resigned, There is no one to block. Israel’s acquisition of more of the West Bank . If Lebanon has no government anymore . There is no one to even discuss the issue with.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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11 Aug 2020, 12:46 pm

Jakki wrote:
Okay. , having followed the little bit of information by NPR about Israel wishing to annex more of the West Bank
Which is part of Lebanon , earlier this month . So am quite sure that Israel would be knowledgeable of this huge
Store house of potential explosive . And consequently after the explosion , the current Lebanese government
Resigned, There is no one to block. Israel’s acquisition of more of the West Bank . If Lebanon has no government anymore . There is no one to even discuss the issue with.


No, the government resigned because it was a total failure in every aspect and the people were furious. The blast could be a sabotage mission (like how it's happening in Iran, and in Syria, Israel was very active lately in blowing up missile parts and ammo in Syria for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0ajHf0Kgwc), and it could be an accident.
The people were furious for why it was stored there (and questioning what was stored for), regardless how it blew up.

West Bank is not geographically adjacent with Lebanon btw.



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11 Aug 2020, 1:44 pm

Jakki wrote:
Okay. , having followed the little bit of information by NPR about Israel wishing to annex more of the West Bank
Which is part of Lebanon , earlier this month . So am quite sure that Israel would be knowledgeable of this huge
Store house of potential explosive . And consequently after the explosion , the current Lebanese government
Resigned, There is no one to block. Israel’s acquisition of more of the West Bank . If Lebanon has no government anymore . There is no one to even discuss the issue with.


The West Bank was never part of Lebanon. It was, arguably still is, part of the Kingdom of Jordan.

Lebanon did join its Arab neighbors in attacking Israel in the '47 war. But was not a party when Syria, Jordan, and Egypt, all attacked Israel in the 1967 War. The '67 war resulted in Israel controlling Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights (from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria respectively). The Golan Heights were eventually given back. Gaza, and the West Bank are what is still known as the "occupied territories". Neither borders Lebanon.



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11 Aug 2020, 2:57 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Jakki wrote:
Okay. , having followed the little bit of information by NPR about Israel wishing to annex more of the West Bank
Which is part of Lebanon , earlier this month . So am quite sure that Israel would be knowledgeable of this huge
Store house of potential explosive . And consequently after the explosion , the current Lebanese government
Resigned, There is no one to block. Israel’s acquisition of more of the West Bank . If Lebanon has no government anymore . There is no one to even discuss the issue with.


The West Bank was never part of Lebanon. It was, arguably still is, part of the Kingdom of Jordan.

Lebanon did join its Arab neighbors in attacking Israel in the '47 war. But was not a party when Syria, Jordan, and Egypt, all attacked Israel in the 1967 War. The '67 war resulted in Israel controlling Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights (from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria respectively). The Golan Heights were eventually given back. Gaza, and the West Bank are what is still known as the "occupied territories". Neither borders Lebanon.


Thank you for this info. Am not from Middle East and not knowledgeable about geography of the area.


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11 Aug 2020, 6:42 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
If this blast was the result of a conspiracy, then it is fair to say that the conspirators were all somewhat less than competent ... unless their goal was to blow up the pier, the warehouses, and half of Beautiful Downtown Beirut.



There's two kinds of negligence in the Middle East: The kind due to laziness or stupidity, and the other is due to forced hushing.

The suspected murder of that colonel makes me more leaning to the 2nd possibility.


Could it be both? the stockpile being left on the docks like a "timebomb" is self-evidently incompetence at a local government level. But then the apparent "disposal" of this colonel means somebody could have been planning this for some years.

I agree with Fnord, for what purpose to blow up the waterfront? perhaps because it was easy enough (opportunity), I would hate to think all a terrorist did was to light a cigarette and throw the lighter into the warehouse to set this off.



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12 Aug 2020, 12:28 am

I can't imagine what it must have felt like to be knocked off your feet from the sound. You see the big cloud and it fades fast and then seconds later, you are knocked down.


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12 Aug 2020, 9:17 am

cyberdad wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Fnord wrote:
If this blast was the result of a conspiracy, then it is fair to say that the conspirators were all somewhat less than competent ... unless their goal was to blow up the pier, the warehouses, and half of Beautiful Downtown Beirut.



There's two kinds of negligence in the Middle East: The kind due to laziness or stupidity, and the other is due to forced hushing.

The suspected murder of that colonel makes me more leaning to the 2nd possibility.


Could it be both? the stockpile being left on the docks like a "timebomb" is self-evidently incompetence at a local government level. But then the apparent "disposal" of this colonel means somebody could have been planning this for some years.

I agree with Fnord, for what purpose to blow up the waterfront? perhaps because it was easy enough (opportunity), I would hate to think all a terrorist did was to light a cigarette and throw the lighter into the warehouse to set this off.


One almost thinks that there is a cabal of supervillians who are aware of neglected stockpiles of explosives around the globe, and they simply going around the globe setting these forgotten megatimebombs off, just for their own kicks!

Would be a great plot for a fictional thriller. This explosion in Baltimore was a smaller version of something like it...neglected explosives.

The same perps?

Their next strike?

Well...there is a sunken freighter from World War Two that still sits on the bottom of the Thames River in England with its cargo of eight thousand tons of World War Two munitions. Artillery shells, grenades, depth charges, etc.

If its cargo were to explode...a big mushroom cloud would rise out of the Thames river, and a big tsunami would go up the Thames, and flood much of London!

So...Londoners....get ready to tread water!



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12 Aug 2020, 11:50 am

Not a pretty picture . Poor Londoners , poor Thames River .


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12 Aug 2020, 1:56 pm

Image



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12 Aug 2020, 2:36 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Well...there is a sunken freighter from World War Two that still sits on the bottom of the Thames River in England with its cargo of eight thousand tons of World War Two munitions. Artillery shells, grenades, depth charges, etc.

If its cargo were to explode...a big mushroom cloud would rise out of the Thames river, and a big tsunami would go up the Thames, and flood much of London!

So...Londoners....get ready to tread water!


The only one I'm aware of is the SS Richard Montgomery and that's
near Southend which is over 40 miles from London.
Image

Quote:
According to a survey conducted in 2000, by the United Kingdom Maritime and Coastguard Agency,[5] the wreck still held munitions containing approximately 1,400 tonnes (1,500 short tons) of TNT high explosive.[5] These comprise the following items of ordnance:

286 × 2,000 lb (910 kg) high explosive bombs
4,439 × 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs of various types
1,925 × 500 lb (230 kg) bombs
2,815 fragmentation bombs and bomb clusters
Various explosive booster charges
Various smoke bombs, including white phosphorus bombs
Various pyrotechnic signals


Quote:
According to a BBC news report in 1970,[15] it was determined that if the wreck of Richard Montgomery exploded, it would throw a 1,000-foot-wide (300 m) column of water and debris nearly 10,000 feet (3,000 m) into the air and generate a wave 16 feet (5 m) high. Almost every window in Sheerness (pop. circa 20,000) would be broken and buildings would be damaged by the blast. However, news reports in May 2012 (including one by BBC Kent) stated that the wave could be about 4 feet (1 m) high, which although lower than previous estimates would be enough to cause flooding in some coastal settlements.


I would suspect the Thames barrier would protect London from flooding.
Quote:
The Thames Barrier is a movable barrier system that is designed to prevent the floodplain of most of Greater London from being flooded by exceptionally high tides and storm surges moving up from the North Sea.

Image



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12 Aug 2020, 3:40 pm

Soliloquist wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Well...there is a sunken freighter from World War Two that still sits on the bottom of the Thames River in England with its cargo of eight thousand tons of World War Two munitions. Artillery shells, grenades, depth charges, etc.

If its cargo were to explode...a big mushroom cloud would rise out of the Thames river, and a big tsunami would go up the Thames, and flood much of London!

So...Londoners....get ready to tread water!


The only one I'm aware of is the SS Richard Montgomery and that's
near Southend which is over 40 miles from London.
Image

Quote:
According to a survey conducted in 2000, by the United Kingdom Maritime and Coastguard Agency,[5] the wreck still held munitions containing approximately 1,400 tonnes (1,500 short tons) of TNT high explosive.[5] These comprise the following items of ordnance:

286 × 2,000 lb (910 kg) high explosive bombs
4,439 × 1,000 lb (450 kg) bombs of various types
1,925 × 500 lb (230 kg) bombs
2,815 fragmentation bombs and bomb clusters
Various explosive booster charges
Various smoke bombs, including white phosphorus bombs
Various pyrotechnic signals


Quote:
According to a BBC news report in 1970,[15] it was determined that if the wreck of Richard Montgomery exploded, it would throw a 1,000-foot-wide (300 m) column of water and debris nearly 10,000 feet (3,000 m) into the air and generate a wave 16 feet (5 m) high. Almost every window in Sheerness (pop. circa 20,000) would be broken and buildings would be damaged by the blast. However, news reports in May 2012 (including one by BBC Kent) stated that the wave could be about 4 feet (1 m) high, which although lower than previous estimates would be enough to cause flooding in some coastal settlements.


I would suspect the Thames barrier would protect London from flooding.
Quote:
The Thames Barrier is a movable barrier system that is designed to prevent the floodplain of most of Greater London from being flooded by exceptionally high tides and storm surges moving up from the North Sea.

Image


Thats the one Im talking about. I was talking off of the top of my head. Couldnt think of the ship's name. Should hav e remember because it has the same name as a rival high school to the one I went to. The high school was named after a ball player. Dont know if they are named after the same Richard Montgomery.

Wiki and other articles say it would flood London, And if it went off then there might not be enough warning to shut the Thames Barrier.

From that inventory of the cargo it looks to have about 4 to 5 thousand tons of explosive cargo. But only half of that weight (at most) would be actual chemical explosive. But thats still easily a one to two thousand tons of TNT. Or about one tenth of Hiroshima. That would be ... a lot of boom... if it actually went off all at once.



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13 Aug 2020, 1:58 am

@Fnord and @natural:

That's why I accuse Hezbollah to be behind buying the stockpile, the guys are obsessed about this material lol.

https://www.facebook.com/memri.org/vide ... 291394247/

https://www.memri.org/tv/Hizbullah-secr ... ru2nz7-Fa4


And more experts were saying that it was way less than 2700 tonnes, so a big part was consumed (I highly doubt they got simply scattered without blowing up).

And everyone here knows that they control a part of the port.

This is the shadiest operation:
https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/ ... of-beirut/



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13 Aug 2020, 2:49 am

https://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/m ... ons-Source



Quote:
A warehouse containing 2,750 tonnes of ammonium nitrate exploded in Beirut on Tuesday, killing at least 171 people, injuring thousands, and destroying much of the city.

In the wake of the disaster, observers have questioned why such vast quantities of highly explosive material was left in Beirut’s port, so close to the densely populated city center.

According a former high security source who spoke to Al Arabiya English on condition of anonymity, the ammonium nitrate remained at the port for years because “it was being siphoned off for military purposes by a third party.”

This statement was also later confirmed by a source close to Hezbollah commanders who specified that the product was being used for missiles and rockets war heads, which were sent by Iran to Lebanon and assembled locally in the Hermel Region by Hezbollah. Back in 2017, the French Intelligence Online magazine had already reported that Hezbollah was constructing two underground facilities in Lebanon for manufacturing missiles.