Trump blames political violence of 'radical ideology'
02 Sep 2020, 9:53 am
I thought this was a good explanation for why left-wing protests tend to be more riotous; basically, left-wingers tend to be younger, and the events are much easier to attend since they tend to take place in urban centers already populated by a lot of left-wingers:
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-left-wing ... John-Stoli
However, I'd like to make clear that Portland and Kenosha are not "wastelands". The rioting has tended to be confined to a few blocks at most, and most protesters are not rioting. I see what right-wingers are doing here, they're arguing that left-wing rallies tending to be more riotous as a sign that we shouldn't even consider left-wing ideas, which is very convenient for right-wingers.
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02 Sep 2020, 10:00 am
beneficii wrote:
I see what right-wingers are doing here, they're arguing that left-wing rallies tending to be more riotous as a sign that we shouldn't even consider left-wing ideas, which is very convenient for right-wingers.
Which are typical fascist tactics. They're trying to dehumanize their political opponents and are hoping for a war in which they get an excuse to slaughter anybody who doesn't agree with their ideology. They're also deflecting any blame for the violence that they themselves have stoked.
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Last edited by DeathEmperor413 on 02 Sep 2020, 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
02 Sep 2020, 10:01 am
beneficii wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
Funny how people quoting the "fine people on both sides" speech always leave out the "except the white supremacists, they should be condemned outright!" bit.
Source? I checked this, but couldn't find the qualification you mentioned:
https://www.politifact.com/article/2019 ... s-remarks/
You may need to look closer...
Quote:
Trump: "Okay, good. Are we going to take down the statue? Because he was a major slave owner. Now, are we going to take down his statue?
"So you know what, it’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly.
"Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people. But you also had troublemakers, and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets, and with the baseball bats. You had a lot of bad people in the other group."
"So you know what, it’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly.
"Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people. But you also had troublemakers, and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets, and with the baseball bats. You had a lot of bad people in the other group."
Tollorin
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02 Sep 2020, 10:21 am
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We are in the beginnings of a communist power grab here in America that is causing most of the political violence.
Clearly you don't know what communism mean.
If you define the modern democrats as communist, then so you should define as communist Canada, most european countries and the two Roosevelt.
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02 Sep 2020, 10:21 am
Good point. I'd only say: You gotta go pretty far from the "Fine people on both sides" comment to reach it, though.
_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin
02 Sep 2020, 10:22 am
Tollorin wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We are in the beginnings of a communist power grab here in America that is causing most of the political violence.
Clearly you don't know what communism mean.
If you define the modern democrats as communist, then so you should define as communist Canada, most european countries and the two Roosevelt.
OMG, the commies have taken over all of NATO but the USA! Run, fear! Protect us, daddy Trump!
_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin
02 Sep 2020, 10:42 am
beneficii wrote:
Good point. I'd only say: You gotta go pretty far from the "Fine people on both sides" comment to reach it, though.
It is a bit of a distance, but why would any sane person think his statement was an absolute?
Particularly as the mis-reported quote actually included an indication it wasn't an absolute:
Quote:
Trump: "Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves -- and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides.
So the "problem" statement included an indication that not all on that side were fine, yet is still reported as claiming they all were "fine people".
Also, it wasn't a huge distance away, being the answer to the second question after his "very fine" people remark and was continuing the same line of conversation (the 2 questions between the answers involved the reporter taking the convesration off-topic, then it returning to the original topic):
Quote:
Reporter: "Mr. President, are you putting what you’re calling the alt-left and white supremacists on the same moral plane?"
Trump: "I’m not putting anybody on a moral plane. What I’m saying is this: You had a group on one side and you had a group on the other, and they came at each other with clubs -- and it was vicious and it was horrible. And it was a horrible thing to watch.
"But there is another side. There was a group on this side. You can call them the left -- you just called them the left -- that came violently attacking the other group. So you can say what you want, but that’s the way it is.
Reporter: (Inaudible) "… both sides, sir. You said there was hatred, there was violence on both sides. Are the --"
Trump: "Yes, I think there’s blame on both sides. If you look at both sides -- I think there’s blame on both sides. And I have no doubt about it, and you don’t have any doubt about it either. And if you reported it accurately, you would say."
Reporter: "The neo-Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest --"
Trump: "Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves -- and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group. Excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name."
Reporter: "George Washington and Robert E. Lee are not the same."
Trump: "George Washington was a slave owner. Was George Washington a slave owner? So will George Washington now lose his status? Are we going to take down -- excuse me, are we going to take down statues to George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas Jefferson? You like him?"
Reporter: "I do love Thomas Jefferson."
Trump: "Okay, good. Are we going to take down the statue? Because he was a major slave owner. Now, are we going to take down his statue?
"So you know what, it’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly.
"Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people. But you also had troublemakers, and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets, and with the baseball bats. You had a lot of bad people in the other group."
Reporter: "Sir, I just didn’t understand what you were saying. You were saying the press has treated white nationalists unfairly? I just don’t understand what you were saying."
Trump: "No, no. There were people in that rally -- and I looked the night before -- if you look, there were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them.
"But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest, and very legally protest -- because, I don’t know if you know, they had a permit. The other group didn’t have a permit. So I only tell you this: There are two sides to a story. I thought what took place was a horrible moment for our country -- a horrible moment. But there are two sides to the country.
Trump: "I’m not putting anybody on a moral plane. What I’m saying is this: You had a group on one side and you had a group on the other, and they came at each other with clubs -- and it was vicious and it was horrible. And it was a horrible thing to watch.
"But there is another side. There was a group on this side. You can call them the left -- you just called them the left -- that came violently attacking the other group. So you can say what you want, but that’s the way it is.
Reporter: (Inaudible) "… both sides, sir. You said there was hatred, there was violence on both sides. Are the --"
Trump: "Yes, I think there’s blame on both sides. If you look at both sides -- I think there’s blame on both sides. And I have no doubt about it, and you don’t have any doubt about it either. And if you reported it accurately, you would say."
Reporter: "The neo-Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest --"
Trump: "Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves -- and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. You had people in that group. Excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name."
Reporter: "George Washington and Robert E. Lee are not the same."
Trump: "George Washington was a slave owner. Was George Washington a slave owner? So will George Washington now lose his status? Are we going to take down -- excuse me, are we going to take down statues to George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas Jefferson? You like him?"
Reporter: "I do love Thomas Jefferson."
Trump: "Okay, good. Are we going to take down the statue? Because he was a major slave owner. Now, are we going to take down his statue?
"So you know what, it’s fine. You’re changing history. You’re changing culture. And you had people -- and I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists -- because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists. Okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly.
"Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people. But you also had troublemakers, and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets, and with the baseball bats. You had a lot of bad people in the other group."
Reporter: "Sir, I just didn’t understand what you were saying. You were saying the press has treated white nationalists unfairly? I just don’t understand what you were saying."
Trump: "No, no. There were people in that rally -- and I looked the night before -- if you look, there were people protesting very quietly the taking down of the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day it looked like they had some rough, bad people -- neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call them.
"But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest, and very legally protest -- because, I don’t know if you know, they had a permit. The other group didn’t have a permit. So I only tell you this: There are two sides to a story. I thought what took place was a horrible moment for our country -- a horrible moment. But there are two sides to the country.
So, at least twice in that section of question he specifically excluded the neo-Nazis and white supremacists from the "fine people" category.
02 Sep 2020, 10:44 am
Tollorin wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We are in the beginnings of a communist power grab here in America that is causing most of the political violence.
Clearly you don't know what communism mean.
If you define the modern democrats as communist, then so you should define as communist Canada, most european countries and the two Roosevelt.
I take it you're not familiar with Mao and this communist takeover in China.
02 Sep 2020, 1:07 pm
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We are in the beginnings of a communist power grab here in America that is causing most of the political violence.
Clearly you don't know what communism mean.
If you define the modern democrats as communist, then so you should define as communist Canada, most european countries and the two Roosevelt.
I take it you're not familiar with Mao and this communist takeover in China.
TRUE communism was never practiced. Autocrats and dictatorships bastardized the idea.
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If my darkness or eccentricness offends you, I don't really care.
I will not apologize for being me.
02 Sep 2020, 1:47 pm
Aspiegaming wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We are in the beginnings of a communist power grab here in America that is causing most of the political violence.
Clearly you don't know what communism mean.
If you define the modern democrats as communist, then so you should define as communist Canada, most european countries and the two Roosevelt.
I take it you're not familiar with Mao and this communist takeover in China.
TRUE communism was never practiced. Autocrats and dictatorships bastardized the idea.
The problem is that true communism is still a bad idea as it is predicated on a faulty premise.
02 Sep 2020, 2:12 pm
Aspiegaming wrote:
TRUE communism was never practiced. Autocrats and dictatorships bastardized the idea.
Funny how that happens every time. It's almost like the concept is flawed or something.
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I'm bored out of my skull, let's play a different game. Let's pay a visit down below and cast the world in flame.
02 Sep 2020, 2:13 pm
Wolfram87 wrote:
Aspiegaming wrote:
TRUE communism was never practiced. Autocrats and dictatorships bastardized the idea.
Funny how that happens every time. It's almost like the concept is flawed or something.
Perhaps because humans are naturally drawn to picking sociopathic alphas to lead the herd just like apes in the wild?
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Tollorin
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Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,178
Location: Sherbrooke, Québec, Canada
02 Sep 2020, 3:48 pm
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We are in the beginnings of a communist power grab here in America that is causing most of the political violence.
Clearly you don't know what communism mean.
If you define the modern democrats as communist, then so you should define as communist Canada, most european countries and the two Roosevelt.
I take it you're not familiar with Mao and this communist takeover in China.
How can you even compare Mao to the democrats or even the US left? You should really reconsider your positions if you scream "COMMUNIST!! !" each time someone propose something that has been successfully practiced in a lot of free and prosperous countries (Aka: most modern developed countries) that have nothing to do with communist China, the USRR or North Korea.
As it stand right now even Thatcher or Reagan would be called "communists" by the current republican party.
_________________
Down with speculators!! !
02 Sep 2020, 4:32 pm
Tollorin wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We are in the beginnings of a communist power grab here in America that is causing most of the political violence.
Clearly you don't know what communism mean.
If you define the modern democrats as communist, then so you should define as communist Canada, most european countries and the two Roosevelt.
I take it you're not familiar with Mao and this communist takeover in China.
How can you even compare Mao to the democrats or even the US left? You should really reconsider your positions if you scream "COMMUNIST!! !" each time someone propose something that has been successfully practiced in a lot of free and prosperous countries (Aka: most modern developed countries) that have nothing to do with communist China, the USRR or North Korea.
As it stand right now even Thatcher or Reagan would be called "communists" by the current republican party.
This.
I must say, I'm getting pretty tired of all the red-baiting and appeals to unproven evo psych about "alphas".
_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin
03 Sep 2020, 8:44 am
Tollorin wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We are in the beginnings of a communist power grab here in America that is causing most of the political violence.
Clearly you don't know what communism mean.
If you define the modern democrats as communist, then so you should define as communist Canada, most european countries and the two Roosevelt.
I take it you're not familiar with Mao and this communist takeover in China.
How can you even compare Mao to the democrats or even the US left? You should really reconsider your positions if you scream "COMMUNIST!! !" each time someone propose something that has been successfully practiced in a lot of free and prosperous countries (Aka: most modern developed countries) that have nothing to do with communist China, the USRR or North Korea.
As it stand right now even Thatcher or Reagan would be called "communists" by the current republican party.
Sorry I took so long to respond, I couldn't stop laughing. Thatcher and Reagan would be called communists? Free and prosperous are antithetical to communism. I don't believe you have a good grasp of what communism is.
03 Sep 2020, 4:36 pm
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
Tollorin wrote:
Mr Reynholm wrote:
We are in the beginnings of a communist power grab here in America that is causing most of the political violence.
Clearly you don't know what communism mean.
If you define the modern democrats as communist, then so you should define as communist Canada, most european countries and the two Roosevelt.
I take it you're not familiar with Mao and this communist takeover in China.
How can you even compare Mao to the democrats or even the US left? You should really reconsider your positions if you scream "COMMUNIST!! !" each time someone propose something that has been successfully practiced in a lot of free and prosperous countries (Aka: most modern developed countries) that have nothing to do with communist China, the USRR or North Korea.
As it stand right now even Thatcher or Reagan would be called "communists" by the current republican party.
Sorry I took so long to respond, I couldn't stop laughing. Thatcher and Reagan would be called communists? Free and prosperous are antithetical to communism. I don't believe you have a good grasp of what communism is.
You're the one who brought up communism in the context of a discussion about European social democracies, as if they were one and the same or that one led to another. If this wasn't your intent, then I ask that you consider that in the future.
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"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin
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