Trump finally reveals his Anti-Semitism.
funeralxempire
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25 Dec 2021, 1:34 pm
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay thanks, this is all very interesting. One thing I find interesting about American politics is that it seems that the republicans are more pro-Israel, and that the democrats are more pro-Palestine. I am not sure if one side chose to be pro the opposite, just for the sake of being opposite, of the other party.
But what I find ironic is, is that democrats are progressive where as Palestine is less progressive than Israel, in their politics it seems. They seem more regressive in comparison. Not that I am judging, I am just pointing out how the more progressive democrats seem to be pro-the more regressive Palestine.
And it's ironic more the more regressive republicans, are pro, the more progressive Israel. Is there a reason for this irony perhaps?
But what I find ironic is, is that democrats are progressive where as Palestine is less progressive than Israel, in their politics it seems. They seem more regressive in comparison. Not that I am judging, I am just pointing out how the more progressive democrats seem to be pro-the more regressive Palestine.
And it's ironic more the more regressive republicans, are pro, the more progressive Israel. Is there a reason for this irony perhaps?
I'm not sure it's ironic, it's just morally consistent. If you believe a people have every right to exist within their own homeland they've consistently occupied for centuries that right isn't impacted by whether or not they're ideologically agreeable.
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25 Dec 2021, 3:01 pm
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see. Why don't the republicans agree with that?
I'd like to speak to this. Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to be accurate and un-insulting.
Regardless of the topic, I've found that the reason most people who espouse an ideology agree or disagree with anything, is because their tribe does. This isn't limited to Republicans, of course. I must say though that I am mightily impressed with the awareness of this subject within this thread. There are countless books on the subject and very few of them have demonstrated the level of understanding of the problem as well as many of the contributors to this thread have.
funeralxempire
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25 Dec 2021, 3:18 pm
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see. Why don't the republicans agree with that?
You'd have to ask them. I've heard lots of arguments but the more consistent ones have to do with religious conservatives supporting it for biblical reasons (sometimes aligned with end times prophecies), other right and centre-right blocs lend their unblinking support primarily because it's a pro-west liberal democracy - one could argue this line of thinking is essentially neo-colonialism although you'd be unlikely to get a concession on that criticism.
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戦争ではなく戦争と戦う
26 Dec 2021, 2:19 pm
DmitriNicholaev wrote:
QFT wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I actually don’t know if Trump is an anti-Semite…..but be does certainly say things that anti-Semites say.
He walks like a duck.
He's got credible accusations of sexual assault like a duck.
He quacks like a duck.
I think you're safe in calling him a duck, instead of just pointing out his strong resemblance to ducks.
Well, he moved American embassy to Jerusalem, which doesn't sound like something an antisemite would do.
I guess it is logically possible to have a really obscure mindset that combines zionism with antisemitism. But it would be quite an obscure kind of antisemite indeed.
And by the way being accused of sexual harassment has nothing to do with antisemitism. Think logically instead of just assuming "all bad things go together".
I hope you do realize that there is actually a very strong connection between Anti-Semitism and Pro-Zionism, which a liberal Zionist professor by the name of Peter Beinart himself talks about in his piece in the Guardian on this topic:
Quote:
here is, finally, a third argument for why anti-Zionism equals antisemitism. It is that, as a practical matter, the two animosities simply go together. “Of course it’s theoretically possible to distinguish anti-Zionism from antisemitism, just as it’s theoretically possible to distinguish segregationism from racism,” writes Stephens. Just as virtually all segregationists are also racists, he suggests, virtually all anti-Zionists are also antisemites. You rarely find one without the other.
But that claim is empirically false. In the real world, anti-Zionism and antisemitism don’t always go together. It is easy to find antisemitism among people who, far from opposing Zionism, enthusiastically embrace it.
Before Israel’s creation, some of the world leaders who most ardently promoted Jewish statehood did so because they did not want Jews in their own countries. Before declaring, as foreign secretary in 1917, that Britain “view[s] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”, Arthur Balfour supported the 1905 Aliens Act, which restricted Jewish immigration to the United Kingdom.
And two years after his famous declaration, Balfour said Zionism would “mitigate the age-long miseries created for western civilisation by the presence in its midst of a Body [the Jews] which it too long regarded as alien and even hostile, but which it was equally unable to expel or to absorb”.
In the 1930s, the Polish government adopted a similar tack. Its ruling party, which excluded Jews, trained Zionist fighters on Polish military bases. Why? Because it wanted Polish Jews to emigrate. And a Jewish state would give them somewhere to go. You find echoes of this antisemitic Zionism among some rightwing American Christians who are far friendlier to the Jews of Israel than the Jews of the US. In 1980, Jerry Falwell, a close ally of Israel’s then prime minister, Menachem Begin, quipped that Jews “can make more money accidentally than you can on purpose”.
Israel’s current prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, in 2005 said, “we have no greater friend in the whole world than Pat Robertson” – the same Pat Robertson who later called former US air force judge Mikey Weinstein a “little Jewish radical” for promoting religious freedom in the American military.
After being criticised by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) in 2010 for calling George Soros a “puppet master” who “wants to bring America to her knees” and “reap obscene profits off us”, Glenn Beck travelled to Jerusalem to hold a pro-Israel rally.
More recently, Donald Trump – who told the Republican Jewish Coalition in 2015: “You’re not going to support me because I don’t want your money” – invited Dallas pastor Robert Jeffress, who has said Jews are going to hell for not accepting Jesus, to lead a prayer at the ceremony inaugurating the American embassy in Jerusalem.
In 2017, Richard Spencer, who leads crowds in Nazi salutes, called himself a “white Zionist” who sees Israel as a model for the white homeland he wants in the US.
Some of the European leaders who traffic most blatantly in antisemitism – Hungary’s Viktor Orbán, Heinz-Christian Strache of Austria’s far-right Freedom party and Beatrix von Storch of the Alternative for Germany, which promotes nostalgia for the Third Reich – publicly champion Zionism too.
But that claim is empirically false. In the real world, anti-Zionism and antisemitism don’t always go together. It is easy to find antisemitism among people who, far from opposing Zionism, enthusiastically embrace it.
Before Israel’s creation, some of the world leaders who most ardently promoted Jewish statehood did so because they did not want Jews in their own countries. Before declaring, as foreign secretary in 1917, that Britain “view[s] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”, Arthur Balfour supported the 1905 Aliens Act, which restricted Jewish immigration to the United Kingdom.
And two years after his famous declaration, Balfour said Zionism would “mitigate the age-long miseries created for western civilisation by the presence in its midst of a Body [the Jews] which it too long regarded as alien and even hostile, but which it was equally unable to expel or to absorb”.
In the 1930s, the Polish government adopted a similar tack. Its ruling party, which excluded Jews, trained Zionist fighters on Polish military bases. Why? Because it wanted Polish Jews to emigrate. And a Jewish state would give them somewhere to go. You find echoes of this antisemitic Zionism among some rightwing American Christians who are far friendlier to the Jews of Israel than the Jews of the US. In 1980, Jerry Falwell, a close ally of Israel’s then prime minister, Menachem Begin, quipped that Jews “can make more money accidentally than you can on purpose”.
Israel’s current prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, in 2005 said, “we have no greater friend in the whole world than Pat Robertson” – the same Pat Robertson who later called former US air force judge Mikey Weinstein a “little Jewish radical” for promoting religious freedom in the American military.
After being criticised by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) in 2010 for calling George Soros a “puppet master” who “wants to bring America to her knees” and “reap obscene profits off us”, Glenn Beck travelled to Jerusalem to hold a pro-Israel rally.
More recently, Donald Trump – who told the Republican Jewish Coalition in 2015: “You’re not going to support me because I don’t want your money” – invited Dallas pastor Robert Jeffress, who has said Jews are going to hell for not accepting Jesus, to lead a prayer at the ceremony inaugurating the American embassy in Jerusalem.
In 2017, Richard Spencer, who leads crowds in Nazi salutes, called himself a “white Zionist” who sees Israel as a model for the white homeland he wants in the US.
Some of the European leaders who traffic most blatantly in antisemitism – Hungary’s Viktor Orbán, Heinz-Christian Strache of Austria’s far-right Freedom party and Beatrix von Storch of the Alternative for Germany, which promotes nostalgia for the Third Reich – publicly champion Zionism too.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/m ... ntisemitic
So the jist of what you are saying is that some antisemites support Israel so that Jews won't be in their countries since they would (hopefully) all leave to Israel.
But again, that doesn't seem to be Trump's attitude. I don't remember Trump ever wishing for Jews not to be in the US. His own son in law who is Jewish doesn't seem to bother him. And I don't remember him talking about Jews negatively in any other context either.
26 Dec 2021, 2:25 pm
ASPartOfMe wrote:
QFT wrote:
Well, if someone were to say "Jews care about Israel too much" that would be antisemitic. Yet Trump saying "Jews don't care about Israel enough" is antisemitic as well. Despite the fact that this is the "opposite" statement to the above. So which is antisemitic then?
It sounds like making just about any observation involving Jews is automatically antisemitic. But here is logic. Every ethnic/religious group has SOME distinct properties. So, by default, it means Jews should have SOME distinct properties too -- or else they would no longer exist as a group. Yet naming any of those properties is antisemitic. Do you see how that is a bit ridiculous?
Putting terminology aside, many years ago I actually noticed the same things that Trump has, and was wondering about them too (and I am Jewish, although I am Messianic Jew meaning I believe in Jesus while still keeping Jewish law). The statistical fact revealed in demographic surveys is that 80% of Jews vote democrat. Yet the other statitical fact is that Republican party is a lot more pro-Israel than democratic party. And combination of these two facts is what makes it seem like Jews put Israel second to their other political preferences (whatever they might be). The fact that, in America, the evangelical Christians are more pro-Israel than Jews is also a statistical fact revealed on the surveys. And I believe those surveys were carried out by many different organizations, including Jewish ones. So I don't see how it is antisemitic. It is simple re-stating of the results of the surveys.
And like I said it actually contradicts antisemitic theme of Jews supposedly putting Jewish things (including Israel) ahead of everything else.
It sounds like making just about any observation involving Jews is automatically antisemitic. But here is logic. Every ethnic/religious group has SOME distinct properties. So, by default, it means Jews should have SOME distinct properties too -- or else they would no longer exist as a group. Yet naming any of those properties is antisemitic. Do you see how that is a bit ridiculous?
Putting terminology aside, many years ago I actually noticed the same things that Trump has, and was wondering about them too (and I am Jewish, although I am Messianic Jew meaning I believe in Jesus while still keeping Jewish law). The statistical fact revealed in demographic surveys is that 80% of Jews vote democrat. Yet the other statitical fact is that Republican party is a lot more pro-Israel than democratic party. And combination of these two facts is what makes it seem like Jews put Israel second to their other political preferences (whatever they might be). The fact that, in America, the evangelical Christians are more pro-Israel than Jews is also a statistical fact revealed on the surveys. And I believe those surveys were carried out by many different organizations, including Jewish ones. So I don't see how it is antisemitic. It is simple re-stating of the results of the surveys.
And like I said it actually contradicts antisemitic theme of Jews supposedly putting Jewish things (including Israel) ahead of everything else.
You should not take Trump’s statement as a stand alone comment but combine it with his other comments to Jews describing Israel as “your country” and Netanyahu as “Your Prime Minister”.
Slur of Dual Loyalty
That depends on connotation. For example, one could be trying to encourage them to care about Israel more since its "their country" (a metaphor). In this case it might be part of a POSITIVE speech trying to tell them how good their culture is and trying to encourage them to embrace it.
I am not saying thats what Trump did. In fact that doesn't sound like him either. I am just saying some might do it in this way, to show you that its not that simple.
Of course on a flip site one can also use it to ACCUSE them of dual loyalty. But the fact that one "can" use it in this way, doesn't imply Trump did. It would just be out of his character.
I guess I just don't remember Trump ever acting hostile to Jews. Yes he is often hostile towards Mexicans, and possibly blacks. But I just don't remember Jews ever falling into his target categories.
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26 Dec 2021, 4:01 pm
QFT wrote:
DmitriNicholaev wrote:
QFT wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
I actually don’t know if Trump is an anti-Semite…..but be does certainly say things that anti-Semites say.
He walks like a duck.
He's got credible accusations of sexual assault like a duck.
He quacks like a duck.
I think you're safe in calling him a duck, instead of just pointing out his strong resemblance to ducks.
Well, he moved American embassy to Jerusalem, which doesn't sound like something an antisemite would do.
I guess it is logically possible to have a really obscure mindset that combines zionism with antisemitism. But it would be quite an obscure kind of antisemite indeed.
And by the way being accused of sexual harassment has nothing to do with antisemitism. Think logically instead of just assuming "all bad things go together".
I hope you do realize that there is actually a very strong connection between Anti-Semitism and Pro-Zionism, which a liberal Zionist professor by the name of Peter Beinart himself talks about in his piece in the Guardian on this topic:
Quote:
here is, finally, a third argument for why anti-Zionism equals antisemitism. It is that, as a practical matter, the two animosities simply go together. “Of course it’s theoretically possible to distinguish anti-Zionism from antisemitism, just as it’s theoretically possible to distinguish segregationism from racism,” writes Stephens. Just as virtually all segregationists are also racists, he suggests, virtually all anti-Zionists are also antisemites. You rarely find one without the other.
But that claim is empirically false. In the real world, anti-Zionism and antisemitism don’t always go together. It is easy to find antisemitism among people who, far from opposing Zionism, enthusiastically embrace it.
Before Israel’s creation, some of the world leaders who most ardently promoted Jewish statehood did so because they did not want Jews in their own countries. Before declaring, as foreign secretary in 1917, that Britain “view[s] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”, Arthur Balfour supported the 1905 Aliens Act, which restricted Jewish immigration to the United Kingdom.
And two years after his famous declaration, Balfour said Zionism would “mitigate the age-long miseries created for western civilisation by the presence in its midst of a Body [the Jews] which it too long regarded as alien and even hostile, but which it was equally unable to expel or to absorb”.
In the 1930s, the Polish government adopted a similar tack. Its ruling party, which excluded Jews, trained Zionist fighters on Polish military bases. Why? Because it wanted Polish Jews to emigrate. And a Jewish state would give them somewhere to go. You find echoes of this antisemitic Zionism among some rightwing American Christians who are far friendlier to the Jews of Israel than the Jews of the US. In 1980, Jerry Falwell, a close ally of Israel’s then prime minister, Menachem Begin, quipped that Jews “can make more money accidentally than you can on purpose”.
Israel’s current prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, in 2005 said, “we have no greater friend in the whole world than Pat Robertson” – the same Pat Robertson who later called former US air force judge Mikey Weinstein a “little Jewish radical” for promoting religious freedom in the American military.
After being criticised by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) in 2010 for calling George Soros a “puppet master” who “wants to bring America to her knees” and “reap obscene profits off us”, Glenn Beck travelled to Jerusalem to hold a pro-Israel rally.
More recently, Donald Trump – who told the Republican Jewish Coalition in 2015: “You’re not going to support me because I don’t want your money” – invited Dallas pastor Robert Jeffress, who has said Jews are going to hell for not accepting Jesus, to lead a prayer at the ceremony inaugurating the American embassy in Jerusalem.
In 2017, Richard Spencer, who leads crowds in Nazi salutes, called himself a “white Zionist” who sees Israel as a model for the white homeland he wants in the US.
Some of the European leaders who traffic most blatantly in antisemitism – Hungary’s Viktor Orbán, Heinz-Christian Strache of Austria’s far-right Freedom party and Beatrix von Storch of the Alternative for Germany, which promotes nostalgia for the Third Reich – publicly champion Zionism too.
But that claim is empirically false. In the real world, anti-Zionism and antisemitism don’t always go together. It is easy to find antisemitism among people who, far from opposing Zionism, enthusiastically embrace it.
Before Israel’s creation, some of the world leaders who most ardently promoted Jewish statehood did so because they did not want Jews in their own countries. Before declaring, as foreign secretary in 1917, that Britain “view[s] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people”, Arthur Balfour supported the 1905 Aliens Act, which restricted Jewish immigration to the United Kingdom.
And two years after his famous declaration, Balfour said Zionism would “mitigate the age-long miseries created for western civilisation by the presence in its midst of a Body [the Jews] which it too long regarded as alien and even hostile, but which it was equally unable to expel or to absorb”.
In the 1930s, the Polish government adopted a similar tack. Its ruling party, which excluded Jews, trained Zionist fighters on Polish military bases. Why? Because it wanted Polish Jews to emigrate. And a Jewish state would give them somewhere to go. You find echoes of this antisemitic Zionism among some rightwing American Christians who are far friendlier to the Jews of Israel than the Jews of the US. In 1980, Jerry Falwell, a close ally of Israel’s then prime minister, Menachem Begin, quipped that Jews “can make more money accidentally than you can on purpose”.
Israel’s current prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, in 2005 said, “we have no greater friend in the whole world than Pat Robertson” – the same Pat Robertson who later called former US air force judge Mikey Weinstein a “little Jewish radical” for promoting religious freedom in the American military.
After being criticised by the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) in 2010 for calling George Soros a “puppet master” who “wants to bring America to her knees” and “reap obscene profits off us”, Glenn Beck travelled to Jerusalem to hold a pro-Israel rally.
More recently, Donald Trump – who told the Republican Jewish Coalition in 2015: “You’re not going to support me because I don’t want your money” – invited Dallas pastor Robert Jeffress, who has said Jews are going to hell for not accepting Jesus, to lead a prayer at the ceremony inaugurating the American embassy in Jerusalem.
In 2017, Richard Spencer, who leads crowds in Nazi salutes, called himself a “white Zionist” who sees Israel as a model for the white homeland he wants in the US.
Some of the European leaders who traffic most blatantly in antisemitism – Hungary’s Viktor Orbán, Heinz-Christian Strache of Austria’s far-right Freedom party and Beatrix von Storch of the Alternative for Germany, which promotes nostalgia for the Third Reich – publicly champion Zionism too.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/m ... ntisemitic
So the jist of what you are saying is that some antisemites support Israel so that Jews won't be in their countries since they would (hopefully) all leave to Israel.
But again, that doesn't seem to be Trump's attitude. I don't remember Trump ever wishing for Jews not to be in the US. His own son in law who is Jewish doesn't seem to bother him. And I don't remember him talking about Jews negatively in any other context either.
As already demonstrated here, Trump had accused Kushner of being more loyal to Israel than to America.
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ASPartOfMe
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27 Dec 2021, 12:32 am
QFT wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
QFT wrote:
Well, if someone were to say "Jews care about Israel too much" that would be antisemitic. Yet Trump saying "Jews don't care about Israel enough" is antisemitic as well. Despite the fact that this is the "opposite" statement to the above. So which is antisemitic then?
It sounds like making just about any observation involving Jews is automatically antisemitic. But here is logic. Every ethnic/religious group has SOME distinct properties. So, by default, it means Jews should have SOME distinct properties too -- or else they would no longer exist as a group. Yet naming any of those properties is antisemitic. Do you see how that is a bit ridiculous?
Putting terminology aside, many years ago I actually noticed the same things that Trump has, and was wondering about them too (and I am Jewish, although I am Messianic Jew meaning I believe in Jesus while still keeping Jewish law). The statistical fact revealed in demographic surveys is that 80% of Jews vote democrat. Yet the other statitical fact is that Republican party is a lot more pro-Israel than democratic party. And combination of these two facts is what makes it seem like Jews put Israel second to their other political preferences (whatever they might be). The fact that, in America, the evangelical Christians are more pro-Israel than Jews is also a statistical fact revealed on the surveys. And I believe those surveys were carried out by many different organizations, including Jewish ones. So I don't see how it is antisemitic. It is simple re-stating of the results of the surveys.
And like I said it actually contradicts antisemitic theme of Jews supposedly putting Jewish things (including Israel) ahead of everything else.
It sounds like making just about any observation involving Jews is automatically antisemitic. But here is logic. Every ethnic/religious group has SOME distinct properties. So, by default, it means Jews should have SOME distinct properties too -- or else they would no longer exist as a group. Yet naming any of those properties is antisemitic. Do you see how that is a bit ridiculous?
Putting terminology aside, many years ago I actually noticed the same things that Trump has, and was wondering about them too (and I am Jewish, although I am Messianic Jew meaning I believe in Jesus while still keeping Jewish law). The statistical fact revealed in demographic surveys is that 80% of Jews vote democrat. Yet the other statitical fact is that Republican party is a lot more pro-Israel than democratic party. And combination of these two facts is what makes it seem like Jews put Israel second to their other political preferences (whatever they might be). The fact that, in America, the evangelical Christians are more pro-Israel than Jews is also a statistical fact revealed on the surveys. And I believe those surveys were carried out by many different organizations, including Jewish ones. So I don't see how it is antisemitic. It is simple re-stating of the results of the surveys.
And like I said it actually contradicts antisemitic theme of Jews supposedly putting Jewish things (including Israel) ahead of everything else.
You should not take Trump’s statement as a stand alone comment but combine it with his other comments to Jews describing Israel as “your country” and Netanyahu as “Your Prime Minister”.
Slur of Dual Loyalty
That depends on connotation. For example, one could be trying to encourage them to care about Israel more since its "their country" (a metaphor). In this case it might be part of a POSITIVE speech trying to tell them how good their culture is and trying to encourage them to embrace it.
I am not saying thats what Trump did. In fact that doesn't sound like him either. I am just saying some might do it in this way, to show you that its not that simple.
Of course on a flip site one can also use it to ACCUSE them of dual loyalty. But the fact that one "can" use it in this way, doesn't imply Trump did. It would just be out of his character.
I guess I just don't remember Trump ever acting hostile to Jews. Yes he is often hostile towards Mexicans, and possibly blacks. But I just don't remember Jews ever falling into his target categories.
A key part of Trump's base, the evangelicals need the Jews to do well for the rapture to happen. The Israelis go along with it thinking, they don't believe the rapture will happen so why not take the benefits? The other part of his base are anti "deep state", "global conspiracist" which are often code words for Jews so he says those tropes without mentioning Jews specifically. It likely has been harmful to Jews in that since he brought this rhetoric out of closet attacks against Jews have ramped up. Walking in the streets openly Jewish not as safe as it once was. I have little doubt Trump's rhetoric is a partial cause of this.
That said I do believe he would be more openly anti-Jewish if he did not have to deal with Jewish family members.
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03 Jan 2022, 3:14 am
funeralxempire wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay I see. Why don't the republicans agree with that?
You'd have to ask them. I've heard lots of arguments but the more consistent ones have to do with religious conservatives supporting it for biblical reasons (sometimes aligned with end times prophecies), other right and centre-right blocs lend their unblinking support primarily because it's a pro-west liberal democracy - one could argue this line of thinking is essentially neo-colonialism although you'd be unlikely to get a concession on that criticism.
Oh okay well as far as this whole Israelis not wanting to give Palestinians their land because they are afraid they will loose their identity if they do so, why do they think this? For example Russia gave the US Alaska and they didn't think that would cost them their identity. So why do the Israelis have this mentality? Are they afraid they are going to be attacked for being seen as weak if they do so?
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16 Oct 2022, 5:56 pm
Trump attacks American Jews, posting they must ‘get their act together’ on Israel
Quote:
Former president Donald Trump attacked American Jews in a post on his Truth Social platform on Sunday, saying Jews in the United States must “get their act together” and show more appreciation for the state of Israel “before it is too late.”
American Jews have long been accused of holding secret loyalty to Israel rather than the United States, and Trump’s post leaned on that antisemitic trope, suggesting that by virtue of their religion, American Jews should show more appreciation to Israel.
Trump also complained in the post that “no president” had done more for Israel than he had but that Christian evangelicals are “far more appreciative of this than the people of the Jewish faith, especially those living in the U.S.”
In Sunday’s post, Trump wrote that his support among people living in Israel is “a different story.” “Highest approval rating in the World, could easily be P.M.!” he wrote, contrasting his popularity in the foreign country with his support among American Jews.
Trump’s post drew quick criticism.
“We don’t need the former president, who curries favor with extremists and antisemites, to lecture us about the US-Israel relationship,” Anti-Defamation League chief executive and national director Jonathan Greenblatt said in a statement. “It is not about a quid pro quo; it rests on shared values and security interests. This ‘Jewsplaining’ is insulting and disgusting.”
American Jews have long been accused of holding secret loyalty to Israel rather than the United States, and Trump’s post leaned on that antisemitic trope, suggesting that by virtue of their religion, American Jews should show more appreciation to Israel.
Trump also complained in the post that “no president” had done more for Israel than he had but that Christian evangelicals are “far more appreciative of this than the people of the Jewish faith, especially those living in the U.S.”
In Sunday’s post, Trump wrote that his support among people living in Israel is “a different story.” “Highest approval rating in the World, could easily be P.M.!” he wrote, contrasting his popularity in the foreign country with his support among American Jews.
Trump’s post drew quick criticism.
“We don’t need the former president, who curries favor with extremists and antisemites, to lecture us about the US-Israel relationship,” Anti-Defamation League chief executive and national director Jonathan Greenblatt said in a statement. “It is not about a quid pro quo; it rests on shared values and security interests. This ‘Jewsplaining’ is insulting and disgusting.”
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16 Oct 2022, 10:06 pm
From my point of view, Trump is being "opposite" to antisemitism. He criticizes Jews for being antisemitic.
There is a concept of "self hating Jews" or in other words "antisemitic Jews". Thats the concept that pro-Israel Jews are using in criticizing anti-Israel Jews. As in, anti-Israel Jews are the ones that are "antisemitic" or "self-hating" while pro-Israel ones are the ones with Jewish pride and are opposed to antisemitism.
Well, all Trump did is agree with pro-Israel Jews. Since pro-Israel Jews aren't antisemitic, neither is Trump.
I realize that the rhetoric "Jews say such and such so its not antisemitic" is wrong. But the reason its wrong is precisely because there are antisemitic Jews. Well, antisemitic Jews are anti-Israel, not pro-Israel. So the notion of Jewish self-hatred would nullify the statement "there are anti-Israel Jews so one can be anti-Israel without being antisemitic". But it won't nullify the statement that "Trump agrees with pro-Israel Jews so he isn't antisemitic. After all, nobody accuses pro-Israel Jews of self-hatred.
16 Oct 2022, 11:11 pm
QFT wrote:
From my point of view, Trump is being "opposite" to antisemitism. He criticizes Jews for being antisemitic.
There is a concept of "self hating Jews" or in other words "antisemitic Jews". Thats the concept that pro-Israel Jews are using in criticizing anti-Israel Jews. As in, anti-Israel Jews are the ones that are "antisemitic" or "self-hating" while pro-Israel ones are the ones with Jewish pride and are opposed to antisemitism.
Well, all Trump did is agree with pro-Israel Jews. Since pro-Israel Jews aren't antisemitic, neither is Trump.
I realize that the rhetoric "Jews say such and such so its not antisemitic" is wrong. But the reason its wrong is precisely because there are antisemitic Jews. Well, antisemitic Jews are anti-Israel, not pro-Israel. So the notion of Jewish self-hatred would nullify the statement "there are anti-Israel Jews so one can be anti-Israel without being antisemitic". But it won't nullify the statement that "Trump agrees with pro-Israel Jews so he isn't antisemitic. After all, nobody accuses pro-Israel Jews of self-hatred.
There is a concept of "self hating Jews" or in other words "antisemitic Jews". Thats the concept that pro-Israel Jews are using in criticizing anti-Israel Jews. As in, anti-Israel Jews are the ones that are "antisemitic" or "self-hating" while pro-Israel ones are the ones with Jewish pride and are opposed to antisemitism.
Well, all Trump did is agree with pro-Israel Jews. Since pro-Israel Jews aren't antisemitic, neither is Trump.
I realize that the rhetoric "Jews say such and such so its not antisemitic" is wrong. But the reason its wrong is precisely because there are antisemitic Jews. Well, antisemitic Jews are anti-Israel, not pro-Israel. So the notion of Jewish self-hatred would nullify the statement "there are anti-Israel Jews so one can be anti-Israel without being antisemitic". But it won't nullify the statement that "Trump agrees with pro-Israel Jews so he isn't antisemitic. After all, nobody accuses pro-Israel Jews of self-hatred.
Well this is what I thought too, as Trump seems pretty pro-Israel from his statement, and I don't see how being pro-Israel can be antisemitic.
17 Oct 2022, 12:16 am
There are theologically based Protestant views towards Israel that people outside of those views don't get. Even if a Protestant with such views says something negative about Jews and or Israel, it's meant as constructive criticism.
In a nutshell the Protestant view I'm taking about is absolute support for Israel, because the belief is if America turns its back on supporting Israel, God will be greatly displeased.
17 Oct 2022, 12:33 am
ironpony wrote:
DmitriNicholaev wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. Well other countries have no problems allowing in immigrants, so why is it a big deal for Israel compared to other countries?
Israel does allow some immigrants, but Israel's situation is infinitely different than other countries' situations. Israel, unlike other countries, doesnt have defined borders because Israel is an expansionist state that has as its goal the complete resurrection of the land that used to belong to Israel, which means the West Bank and Gaza, but Israel also wants to be the land of the Jewish people and that means having a majority Jewish population. England, which already has solid borders that are well defined, can choose to import immigrants following certain quotas because there isn't any fear that the population of immigrants will ever truly outnumber the native Britains, despite how much white nationalists fear such a predicament. Israel on the other hand isn't Britain because Israel hasn't realized its ideal state borders, but if Israel were to annex the West Bank and Gaza Israel would now be a majority Arab land, which means its no longer the land of the Jewish people.
Israel isn't like other countries because Israel isn't a civic state, which is a state where the premium is on being a citizen who follows the laws; Israel is an ethno-nationalist state, which means that Israel is primarily the land of the Jewish people and its land is supposed to be majority Jewish. America isn't the land of the White people, but the land of the American people, and American just means a citizen of America who follows the laws and is entitled to full citizenship rights. Israel defines itself as the sole land of the Jewish people, so having an Arab majority would disrupt that end goal and go against the entire premise of a Jewish majority state.
Oh okay I see. Thank you for explaning. Why don't they just become a nation like the UK for example, if that would mean less conflict? Is just a matter of mere d%^k measuring, rather than wanting to function as an actual nation?
Also, I do not understand how if Israel were to relinquish the Gaza Strip and the West Bank that that would make them more of an Arab population? If they were to give up those areas to Palestinians, wouldn't that mean there are now less Arabs in Israel, since more Arabs would then therefore be gone if that happened?
Getting rid of Gaza, and the West Bank would indeed mean getting rid of the huge Arab population. But it would make Israel a physically narrower country, and harder to defend.
And there also interest groups in Israel that seek to expand Jewish settlements into the West Bank.
Israel seized the same two territories in the 1956 war (the second of the four Arab-Israeli wars) but bowed to international pressure, and gave them back (Gaza to Egypt, and the West Bank to Jordan).
In the 1967 war Israel again seized Gaza from Egypt, the West Bank from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.
But this time they kept them- hence the name "the Occupied Territories". Though two decades later Israel did give the Golan Heights back to Syria (an empty mountainous area of military importance, but with virtually no population). But still rules Gaza, and the West Bank, and both areas' sizeable Palestinian Arab populations.
17 Oct 2022, 12:37 am
naturalplastic wrote:
ironpony wrote:
DmitriNicholaev wrote:
ironpony wrote:
Oh okay. Well other countries have no problems allowing in immigrants, so why is it a big deal for Israel compared to other countries?
Israel does allow some immigrants, but Israel's situation is infinitely different than other countries' situations. Israel, unlike other countries, doesnt have defined borders because Israel is an expansionist state that has as its goal the complete resurrection of the land that used to belong to Israel, which means the West Bank and Gaza, but Israel also wants to be the land of the Jewish people and that means having a majority Jewish population. England, which already has solid borders that are well defined, can choose to import immigrants following certain quotas because there isn't any fear that the population of immigrants will ever truly outnumber the native Britains, despite how much white nationalists fear such a predicament. Israel on the other hand isn't Britain because Israel hasn't realized its ideal state borders, but if Israel were to annex the West Bank and Gaza Israel would now be a majority Arab land, which means its no longer the land of the Jewish people.
Israel isn't like other countries because Israel isn't a civic state, which is a state where the premium is on being a citizen who follows the laws; Israel is an ethno-nationalist state, which means that Israel is primarily the land of the Jewish people and its land is supposed to be majority Jewish. America isn't the land of the White people, but the land of the American people, and American just means a citizen of America who follows the laws and is entitled to full citizenship rights. Israel defines itself as the sole land of the Jewish people, so having an Arab majority would disrupt that end goal and go against the entire premise of a Jewish majority state.
Oh okay I see. Thank you for explaning. Why don't they just become a nation like the UK for example, if that would mean less conflict? Is just a matter of mere d%^k measuring, rather than wanting to function as an actual nation?
Also, I do not understand how if Israel were to relinquish the Gaza Strip and the West Bank that that would make them more of an Arab population? If they were to give up those areas to Palestinians, wouldn't that mean there are now less Arabs in Israel, since more Arabs would then therefore be gone if that happened?
Getting rid of Gaza, and the West Bank would indeed mean getting rid of the huge Arab population. But it would make Israel a physically narrower country, and harder to defend.
And there also interest groups in Israel that seek to expand Jewish settlements into the West Bank.
Israel seized the same two territories in the 1956 war (the second of the four Arab-Israeli wars) but bowed to international pressure, and gave them back (Gaza to Egypt, and the West Bank to Jordan).
In the 1967 war Israel again seized Gaza from Egypt, the West Bank from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria.
But this time they kept them- hence the name "the Occupied Territories". Though two decades later Israel did give the Golan Heights back to Syria (an empty mountainous area of military importance, but with virtually no population). But still rules Gaza, and the West Bank, and both areas' sizeable Palestinian Arab populations.
Oh okay, but if Israel would be a narrower country, and harder to defend, is that a bad thing necessarily? I mean countries like Belize and Switerzerland, are smaller than Israel for example, and they seem to do fine, even though they are smaller?
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,795
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
17 Oct 2022, 12:37 am
QFT wrote:
From my point of view, Trump is being "opposite" to antisemitism. He criticizes Jews for being antisemitic.
There is a concept of "self hating Jews" or in other words "antisemitic Jews". Thats the concept that pro-Israel Jews are using in criticizing anti-Israel Jews. As in, anti-Israel Jews are the ones that are "antisemitic" or "self-hating" while pro-Israel ones are the ones with Jewish pride and are opposed to antisemitism.
Well, all Trump did is agree with pro-Israel Jews. Since pro-Israel Jews aren't antisemitic, neither is Trump.
I realize that the rhetoric "Jews say such and such so its not antisemitic" is wrong. But the reason its wrong is precisely because there are antisemitic Jews. Well, antisemitic Jews are anti-Israel, not pro-Israel. So the notion of Jewish self-hatred would nullify the statement "there are anti-Israel Jews so one can be anti-Israel without being antisemitic". But it won't nullify the statement that "Trump agrees with pro-Israel Jews so he isn't antisemitic. After all, nobody accuses pro-Israel Jews of self-hatred.
There is a concept of "self hating Jews" or in other words "antisemitic Jews". Thats the concept that pro-Israel Jews are using in criticizing anti-Israel Jews. As in, anti-Israel Jews are the ones that are "antisemitic" or "self-hating" while pro-Israel ones are the ones with Jewish pride and are opposed to antisemitism.
Well, all Trump did is agree with pro-Israel Jews. Since pro-Israel Jews aren't antisemitic, neither is Trump.
I realize that the rhetoric "Jews say such and such so its not antisemitic" is wrong. But the reason its wrong is precisely because there are antisemitic Jews. Well, antisemitic Jews are anti-Israel, not pro-Israel. So the notion of Jewish self-hatred would nullify the statement "there are anti-Israel Jews so one can be anti-Israel without being antisemitic". But it won't nullify the statement that "Trump agrees with pro-Israel Jews so he isn't antisemitic. After all, nobody accuses pro-Israel Jews of self-hatred.
Criticism of Israel doesn't necessarily make one Anti-Semitic. After all, being lovingly critical of America is in fact the height of patriotism.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
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