Trump finally reveals his Anti-Semitism.

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A combination of two things:

1) Christians have the reasons why they, as Christians, support Israel

2) The reasons why Jews, as Jews, support Israel aren't as strong as they used to be

would logically lead to a possiblity of Christians being more pro-Israel than Jews.

Now lets fill in the blanks.

Reasons for 1:

a) The view of Jews as Gods chosen people

b) Belief that before Jesus returns Jews need to be in Israel

Reasons for 2:

a) Secularization of Jews

b) the fact that Jewish identity has many components and they are focusing on the components that don't involve Israel

Speaking of "2a", one thing to point out is that there is such a thing as "secular Jew" but there is no such thing as "secular Christian". Thats because being a Jew is an ethnic identity while being a Christian is a religious one. Now, even Jews as "ethnic identity" has reasons to support Israel: they want their ethnicity to have country of their own. But again there are other ways of reassessing their ethnic identity without the state of Israel. So if we are talking about "who has greater insentive to support Israel" it is logically possible that religious group (aka Christians) happens to be more motivated. I didn't say it has to be, just that its "logically possible". And America happens to be the one (and probably the only) country where such "logical possibility" materialized.

What I am trying to say is this. Jews and Christians are two distinct groups with strong motivation to support Israel. Some of their motivation is similar, but some of it is different. Due to the fact that they have enough differences in their motivation, it is possible for either one of them to be more pro-Israel than the other one. For example:

--- Jews can be more pro-Israel since their motivation is more personal

--- Christians can be more pro-Israel since they are the only ones who believe Israel is necessary for Jesus return

And this is just a random example of reasons on both sides.

Well it just happens that America is a country where Christians are more pro-Israel, while in the rest of the world its probably the opposite.

They do consider Him a Jew, they just have different understanding of Judaism. In particular they might not fully grasp that Jews don't view their upcoming Messiah to be God.

And then there are some who do grasp it, and they claim that Jews misinterpretted their own religion. So they make a distinction between "Biblical Judaism" and "Rabbinic Judaism", and they claim that Jesus was part of the former while most of the modern Jews are part of the latter.

In fact Christians are not unique in this regard. Some Lubavich rabbis today are awaiting the resurrection of Rabbi Schneerson. And that is despite the fact that they cite Maimonides that "if someone dies before fulfilling the Messianic prophecies they can not be a Messiah" whenever the topic of Jesus comes up. Granted, most of them don't think Schneerson was God, but even for that there are exceptions. I read about one Lubovich rabbi that was excommunicated for thinking that he was, in fact, God. And also I heard of another Jewish sect that decided that now that Schneerson is a messiah they can go ahead and break Jewish laws: in particular, instead of Yom Kippur being a fast day, they declared it to be feast day. Again, we are talking about just a small obscure group of Jews that was probably excommunicated. But I hope you see how, within this context, one can argue that Christianity is too one of the groups of Jews that just went weird.

Plus of course there is the fact that NOT ALL Christians break Jewish laws (for example Messianic and Sabbaterian groups still keep Jewish laws -- and in fact I am following those groups as opposed to mainstream Christians so I keep the Jewish laws too). So what is worse then: some weird people who believe in Schneerson as a Messiah who decided that "fast day is now feast day" or Messianics who believe that "fast day is still fast day" and in fact keep it more diligently than a lot of Jews. Many mainstream Jews today are secular and happily eat pork, which most Messianics do not. Yet secular Jews, who eat pork, are welcome to Israel while Messianics (who don't eat pork) aren't.

Likewise, NOT ALL Christians believe Jesus is God either. For example Jehovah Wittnesses and Christadelphians don't. So how is a Christian who believes Jesus is Messiah but not God any worse than Lubovich Jew who believes that Schneerson is the Messiah? If you say the Christian is worse for not keeping Jewish law, well let me point to the fact that some secular Jews don't keep Jewish law either. So if we take a secular Jew, who doesn't keep Jewish law, and happens to believe that Schneerson is Messiah but not God, then how is Christadelphian, who doesn't keep Jewish law either, and believes that Jesus is Messiah but not God, any worse?

And then of course there is also a combination of both of the above things. Instead of talking about Messianics (who say Jewish law is to be kept but Jesus is God) or Christadelphians (that say that Jesus is not God but Jewish law shouldn't be kept either) why not talk about the groups that say that Jesus is NOT God AND Jewish law has to be kept. The website www.torahofmessiah.com is an example of such group. So if you say Jewish law is to be kept AND Jesus is not God, then you are basically agreeing with Lubovich on both accounts, you just replaced Schneerson with Jesus. So then why is it Lubovichs are welcome to Israel while this specific brand of Messianis isn't?

Here is something else I been thinking of for a while that I don't think crossed most people's minds. I remember I attended the passover held by chabad lubovich (so no he doesn't believe in Jesus) and he mentioned how at the end of the first century around 100 Jews all died because they killed each other over some doctrinal disagreements. Now, he wasn't interested in Jesus, but this caused ME to come up with some ideas of my own. Namely, the crucifixion of Jesus was just part of the bigger picture of different civil wars within Jewish community at the time. Then Judeo-based religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) are simply children of respective Jewish groups (Judaism = children of Pharesees, Christianity = children of Nazarenes, Islam = children of ebionites) and the fighting between these three Abrahamic religions are simply the inheritance of the civil wars within Judaism, since all three of them are really descendents of Judaism. So Christians killing Jews in inquisition is really an inheritance of Jews killing each other during first century. And during first century when Jews were killing each other they knew they were all Jews, yet their differences were big enough to kill. Similarly, Christians also know they have Jewish roots yet differences are again big enough to kill.

Of course today most Christians don't kill. But the point is that antisemitism is really an inheritance of Jewish in-fighting in the context of Christianity being a Jewish offshot. In fact there is no reason for Buddhists to hate Jews: Jews are just one of zillion other ethnic groups. But for Christians yes there is a reason: they have Jewish roots, so they have some issues to fight over with their mother-religion.

Evangelicals very much take the book of Revelations (too) literally, thus believing that Jesus will only return to rule an earthly kingdom for a thousand years if the Jews rule Israel, and when the temple of Jerusalem is restored. They believe God will show them favoritism for supporting the restoration of Israel.
Most mainline Christians don't take Revelations 100% literally, see most of that book as covering things that have mostly already occurred centuries ago, see Christ's kingdom on earth as the Christian faith, and His thousand year reign as a long, indeterminant period of time.

Actually, it was more a matter of mass conversion. While pagans within Roman society could be treated harshly for their beliefs, the Romans were interested in expanding Christianity among pagan tribes and nations, perhaps to gain political influence as well as saving souls.

Malcolm X is a bad example to use because Malcolm X was himself racist against Whites (or was until he a dramatic change of heart not long before the end of his life).

There are plenty of actual real examples of Black individuals being lionized by White individuals who ...were still racist against Blacks.

Eric Clapton's life work was imitating the guitar playing blues singers of America like BB King, Freddy King, and Albert King. All of whom were Black. He did an album with, and made music vids with BB King. But that didnt stop Eric Clapton from using racial slurs when he got drunk on stage, and from being against Blacks immigrating to the UK.

Is that inconsistant? Yes. Does it make sense? No. But thats how human beings are. Humans dont always make sense.

So its possible for folks to make a Jewish guy into a god, and still hate Jews.

Some Christians seem to forget that Catholics are also Christian.

Protestants initially disliked Catholics because they believed Catholics were too much into worshiping idols and were too materialistic.

Read Martin Luther’s 95 Theses.

But Christians don’t consider Jesus to be Jewish. I don’t know any who do—who don’t think about the historical Jesus.

I actually don’t know if Trump is an anti-Semite…..but be does certainly say things that anti-Semites say.

You should not take Trump’s statement as a stand alone comment but combine it with his other comments to Jews describing Israel as “your country” and Netanyahu as “Your Prime Minister”.
Slur of Dual Loyalty

These days the emphasis is on identity but it was the opposite way when my Grandparents and Great Grandparents escaped programs to come here arriving at Ellis Island. They were met with open discrimination. Rightly or wrongly their solution was rigorous schooling and hard work in order to Americanize. It until recently worked. My family became solid middle class citizens. Others became key parts of American economy and culture. The dual loyalty accusations were relegated to the fringes and stayed there for decades.

And now we seem to be going backwards. These accusations are truly an insult because they dismiss all the work that went into the success of Americanization.

For sure most Jews do recognize the rise in Jew hate with the well publicized physical attacks. But that I and others feel the need to explain why Trump’s comments are bad to fellow Jews speaks to the tremendous success of the Americanization efforts.

Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 25 Dec 2021, 12:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

There was serious doubt that John Kennedy could be elected President because of the belief he would be loyal to the Pope, not America
How John F. Kennedy Overcame Anti-Catholic Bias to Win the Presidency


The KKK was huge and very much out in the open on Long Island in the 1920s. At the time there were not many blacks or Jews here so it was Catholics that received most of their ire. There was a cross burning at a Catholic Church in my hometown.

Okay here is an example. There were some New Testament sections that mentioned places in Israel that were occupied by Jews and places occupied by gentiles. Well, one of us used the argument that Jesus was born in Bethlehem as a proof that Bethlehem was occupied by Jews. So clearly that person knew that Jesus was Jewish. And nobody else asked him "what are you talking about". Everyone knew Jesus was Jewish within the context of that conversation.

And no it wasn't Messianic Bible study, it was a regular Christian Bible study. The fact that Jesus was Jewish is a common knowledge among Christians.

He walks like a duck.
He's got credible accusations of sexual assault like a duck.
He quacks like a duck.

I think you're safe in calling him a duck, instead of just pointing out his strong resemblance to ducks.

Well, he moved American embassy to Jerusalem, which doesn't sound like something an antisemite would do.

I guess it is logically possible to have a really obscure mindset that combines zionism with antisemitism. But it would be quite an obscure kind of antisemite indeed.

And by the way being accused of sexual harassment has nothing to do with antisemitism. Think logically instead of just assuming "all bad things go together".

I hope you do realize that there is actually a very strong connection between Anti-Semitism and Pro-Zionism, which a liberal Zionist professor by the name of Peter Beinart himself talks about in his piece in the Guardian on this topic:



https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/m ... ntisemitic

Antisemites can still support Zionism out of the belief that a Jewish nation will draw Jewish citizens to emigrate.

DmitriNicholaev addressed this well.

Oh okay thanks, this is all very interesting. One thing I find interesting about American politics is that it seems that the republicans are more pro-Israel, and that the democrats are more pro-Palestine. I am not sure if one side chose to be pro the opposite, just for the sake of being opposite, of the other party.

But what I find ironic is, is that democrats are progressive where as Palestine is less progressive than Israel, in their politics it seems. They seem more regressive in comparison. Not that I am judging, I am just pointing out how the more progressive democrats seem to be pro-the more regressive Palestine.

And it's ironic more the more regressive republicans, are pro, the more progressive Israel. Is there a reason for this irony perhaps?