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Australia will continue to support Ukrainian war effort

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Pepe
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25 Feb 2023, 10:28 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Firstly, you need to consider the context of Australian politics.
Secondly, you aren't a resident of Australia whereas I am.

The Albanese government is considered, by some, the most left-leaning government since *cough* St Gough Whitlam.
The policies being introduced AFTER the election suggests to me this is the case.

To be klear, there are things I like and dislike about this Labor Party government.


I am considering the context of Australian politics, Labor are one of the major parties after-all. They're not the Socialist Alliance (for an example of a far-left party from Australia), they're more like if Canada's Liberals and NDP merged.

Joe Biden has tried to portray his presidency as being incredibly progressive too, but that's a pretty typical ploy by centrists who know left-leaning votes are why they're in office.

'by some' is often a weasel phrase, who considers Labor to be "the most left-leaning", Sky News and other right-wing media outlets? They scream about that no matter who wins because they have an agenda.

Is it the Labor party claiming it about themselves? They have the same incentive as Ol' Joe, gaslighting people who voted for them.

You've got to consider who the 'some' are and what motivates them.


Yes, it was the biased right-wing bastardos who mentioned this.
It just so happens, after listing to their "argument", I agreed with their statement that this present Labor government is turning much further to the left than they presented themselves before the election.

Even disgustingly biased right-wing hyperpartisans can be right at times. <facetiousness> :mrgreen:

You really need to know what is happening here to understand where I am coming from.
But that is off-topic and I have little interest in going there.



Pepe
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25 Feb 2023, 10:33 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I'm sorry to hear that you're struggling but I'm not sure that's a solid case for throwing Ukraine under the bus. The more broken the Russian military becomes now, the less likely it is that NATO will end up fighting them directly.


Thanks, Pepe thought my financial situation was funny


Could you cut and paste where you thought I was mocking your financial situation?

It seems to be the week of misrepresentation and character assassination.
"Interesting." 8)

Pepe wrote:

Well, yes, I can afford my position in barracking for Ukraine.
But Australians are being hit also by the cost of living increases.
cyberdad isn't in as good a position, based on what he has said.


And what exactly suggested I found your financial situation "funny?"
I think my comment shows I was reasonable in what I said.
"Curious."



funeralxempire
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25 Feb 2023, 10:42 pm

Pepe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Firstly, you need to consider the context of Australian politics.
Secondly, you aren't a resident of Australia whereas I am.

The Albanese government is considered, by some, the most left-leaning government since *cough* St Gough Whitlam.
The policies being introduced AFTER the election suggests to me this is the case.

To be klear, there are things I like and dislike about this Labor Party government.


I am considering the context of Australian politics, Labor are one of the major parties after-all. They're not the Socialist Alliance (for an example of a far-left party from Australia), they're more like if Canada's Liberals and NDP merged.

Joe Biden has tried to portray his presidency as being incredibly progressive too, but that's a pretty typical ploy by centrists who know left-leaning votes are why they're in office.

'by some' is often a weasel phrase, who considers Labor to be "the most left-leaning", Sky News and other right-wing media outlets? They scream about that no matter who wins because they have an agenda.

Is it the Labor party claiming it about themselves? They have the same incentive as Ol' Joe, gaslighting people who voted for them.

You've got to consider who the 'some' are and what motivates them.


Yes, it was the biased right-wing bastardos who mentioned this.
It just so happens, after listing to their "argument", I agreed with their statement that this present Labor government is turning much further to the left than they presented themselves before the election.

Even disgustingly biased right-wing hyperpartisans can be right at times. <facetiousness> :mrgreen:

You really need to know what is happening here to understand where I am coming from.
But that is off-topic and I have little interest in going there.


Well beyond what they said isn't the same as being radical though. It's not like they're going to nationalize a bunch of industries or make business men wear clown suits.


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Pepe
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26 Feb 2023, 1:30 am

funeralxempire wrote:
Pepe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Firstly, you need to consider the context of Australian politics.
Secondly, you aren't a resident of Australia whereas I am.

The Albanese government is considered, by some, the most left-leaning government since *cough* St Gough Whitlam.
The policies being introduced AFTER the election suggests to me this is the case.

To be klear, there are things I like and dislike about this Labor Party government.


I am considering the context of Australian politics, Labor are one of the major parties after-all. They're not the Socialist Alliance (for an example of a far-left party from Australia), they're more like if Canada's Liberals and NDP merged.

Joe Biden has tried to portray his presidency as being incredibly progressive too, but that's a pretty typical ploy by centrists who know left-leaning votes are why they're in office.

'by some' is often a weasel phrase, who considers Labor to be "the most left-leaning", Sky News and other right-wing media outlets? They scream about that no matter who wins because they have an agenda.

Is it the Labor party claiming it about themselves? They have the same incentive as Ol' Joe, gaslighting people who voted for them.

You've got to consider who the 'some' are and what motivates them.


Yes, it was the biased right-wing bastardos who mentioned this.
It just so happens, after listing to their "argument", I agreed with their statement that this present Labor government is turning much further to the left than they presented themselves before the election.

Even disgustingly biased right-wing hyperpartisans can be right at times. <facetiousness> :mrgreen:

You really need to know what is happening here to understand where I am coming from.
But that is off-topic and I have little interest in going there.


Well beyond what they said isn't the same as being radical though. It's not like they're going to nationalize a bunch of industries or make business men wear clown suits.


I refuse to respond to your off-topic post.
:scratch: 8O :wall: :mrgreen:



cyberdad
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26 Feb 2023, 1:34 am

Pepe wrote:
And what exactly suggested I found your financial situation "funny?"
I think my comment shows I was reasonable in what I said.
"Curious."


Hmmm perhaps not. In any case whoever's in power, it's going to be an expensive trip



Pepe
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26 Feb 2023, 3:25 am

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
And what exactly suggested I found your financial situation "funny?"
I think my comment shows I was reasonable in what I said.
"Curious."


Hmmm perhaps not. In any case whoever's in power, it's going to be an expensive trip


Others have a mind of their own.
It is all in black and white.
They can decide for themselves.



Persephone29
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26 Feb 2023, 8:29 am

^ I don't understand how we can decide for ourselves, we pay taxes and corrupt Joe (owned by Ukraine in order to keep the truth about his family dealings with them from completely coming to light) appropriates them for Ukraine in the guise of keeping Russia out, but we know it's really hush money.

We are on the brink of WW3. In 1941, we did not deserve Pearl Harbor. When whomever strikes this time, we'll deserve it.


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funeralxempire
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26 Feb 2023, 11:59 am

Persephone29 wrote:
but we know it's really hush money.


<citation needed>


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Mona Pereth
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26 Feb 2023, 2:27 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
^ I don't understand how we can decide for ourselves, we pay taxes and corrupt Joe (owned by Ukraine in order to keep the truth about his family dealings with them from completely coming to light) appropriates them for Ukraine in the guise of keeping Russia out, but we know it's really hush money.

Problem with this hypothesis: "corrupt Joe" isn't acting alone but as part of a vast international alliance. Is "hush money" sufficient to account for the vast international alliance???


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Mona Pereth
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26 Feb 2023, 2:40 pm

Pepe wrote:
I'd bet your left testicle that most Australians support Ukraine.
Majority rulz is our voting system, the last time I checked.
We also have alliance obligations to consider.
If we ever need help due to a jingoistic CCP, our good deeds now would probably pay dividends then.
Well, I certainly hope so.

Yep, alliance obligations. An issue that was ignored in most of the subsequent discussion, but is a key part of the story.


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cyberdad
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26 Feb 2023, 3:29 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
"corrupt Joe" isn't acting alone but as part of a vast international alliance. Is "hush money" sufficient to account for the vast international alliance???


There was a vast alliance (If I recall it was a called a coalition of the willing) when the US and it[s allies manufactured consent to launch a war against Iraq. That went really swimmingly.

They did exactly the same thing pumping money and training into Afghanistan to fight the Russians. All that effectively did was destabilise Afghanistan. Now warlords and terrorists rule both countries



Mona Pereth
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26 Feb 2023, 3:40 pm

cyberdad wrote:
There was a vast alliance (If I recall it was a called a coalition of the willing) when the US and it[s allies manufactured consent to launch a war against Iraq. That went really swimmingly.

They did exactly the same thing pumping money and training into Afghanistan to fight the Russians. All that effectively did was destabilise Afghanistan. Now warlords and terrorists rule both countries

Big difference: In the case of Afghanistan and Iraq, alliances of mostly Western states were the invaders. On the other hand, in the case of Ukraine, the West is not the invader. The West is not sending any troops -- as invaders or otherwise -- and dares not send any troops, lest we start WW III. We are just giving the Ukrainians weapons and other aid to help them defend themselves.

Anyhow, my main point was that the "vast alliance" is clear evidence that there is much more to the story than the kind of petty corrupt motive Persephone has ascribed to Joe Biden as the alleged real reason for U.S. involvement.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 26 Feb 2023, 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mona Pereth
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26 Feb 2023, 3:41 pm

cyberdad wrote:
As I said, this has nothing to do with politics. I don't want to pay and not have money left to eat, keep my home or stay warm in winter

Actually, it seems to me that the main cause of the current worldwide economic crisis is not the monetary cost of the military aid itself, but, rather, the accompanying trade war. The international boycott of Russian goods, together with the accompanying trend toward economic disengagement from China too, have caused lots and lots of shortages, which have driven up the prices of lots and lots of things.

This problem will hopefully sort itself out over the next several years, as new sources are developed for various raw materials, and as more new factories are built in Western or Western-friendly countries.

The West really needed to become less dependent on Russia and China anyway. The COVID crisis already exposed our supply-chain vulnerabilities on many fronts.

cyberdad wrote:
so that NATO can bail out a corrupt state like Ukraine.

Hmmm, if indeed Ukraine is such a "corrupt state," how do you account for the fact that Ukraine has done a surprisingly good job of fighting the war?

The war has certainly exposed what a "corrupt state" Russia is.

Merely sending weapons and other material aid, without sending troops, doesn't usually help an especially "corrupt state" nearly as much as it has helped Ukraine.

Of course, every state has some corruption. The question is whether Ukraine can justly be said to be especially corrupt.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 26 Feb 2023, 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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26 Feb 2023, 4:57 pm

Persephone29 wrote:
^ I don't understand how we can decide for ourselves, we pay taxes and corrupt Joe (owned by Ukraine in order to keep the truth about his family dealings with them from completely coming to light) appropriates them for Ukraine in the guise of keeping Russia out, but we know it's really hush money.

We are on the brink of WW3. In 1941, we did not deserve Pearl Harbor. When whomever strikes this time, we'll deserve it.


Misunderstanding.
I was referring to cyberdad's comment that he thought I was making fun of his financial situation.



Pepe
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26 Feb 2023, 4:59 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Pepe wrote:
I'd bet your left testicle that most Australians support Ukraine.
Majority rulz is our voting system, the last time I checked.
We also have alliance obligations to consider.
If we ever need help due to a jingoistic CCP, our good deeds now would probably pay dividends then.
Well, I certainly hope so.

Yep, alliance obligations. An issue that was ignored in most of the subsequent discussion, but is a key part of the story.


I thank you.



Pepe
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26 Feb 2023, 5:03 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Persephone29 wrote:
"corrupt Joe" isn't acting alone but as part of a vast international alliance. Is "hush money" sufficient to account for the vast international alliance???


There was a vast alliance (If I recall it was a called a coalition of the willing) when the US and it[s allies manufactured consent to launch a war against Iraq. That went really swimmingly.

They did exactly the same thing pumping money and training into Afghanistan to fight the Russians. All that effectively did was destabilise Afghanistan. Now warlords and terrorists rule both countries


The difference here is that Australia is supporting a sovereign country that has been invaded by a country "hell-bent" on imperialistic land acquisition.

Apples and oranges, sorry.