Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib Censured

Page 1 of 2 [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 39,637
Location: Long Island, New York

08 Nov 2023, 2:50 pm

House votes to censure Rep. Rashida Tlaib over her Israel-Hamas rhetoric in a stunning rebuke

Quote:
The House voted late Tuesday to censure Democratic Rep. Rashida Tlaib of Michigan — the only Palestinian American in Congress — an extraordinary rebuke of her rhetoric about the Israel-Hamas war.

The 234-188 tally came after enough Democrats joined with Republicans to censure Tlaib, a punishment one step below expulsion from the House. The three-term congresswoman has long been a target of criticism for her views on the decades-long conflict in the Middle East.

The debate on the censure resolution on Tuesday afternoon was emotional and intense. Republican Rep. Rich McCormick of Georgia pushed the censure measure in response to what he called Tlaib’s promotion of antisemitic rhetoric. He said she has “levied unbelievable falsehoods about our greatest ally, Israel, and the attack on October 7.”

With other Democrats standing by her side, Tlaib defended her stance, saying she “will not be silenced and I will not let you distort my words.”

Tlaib added that her criticism of the Jewish state has always been directed toward its government and its leadership under Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

“It is important to separate people and government,” she said. “The idea that criticizing the government of Israel is antisemitic sets a very dangerous precedent. And it’s been used to silence diverse voices speaking up for human rights across our nation.”

Democrats stood by Tlaib and helped defeat an initial censure resolution against her last week. But since then, many of her colleagues, including prominent Jewish members, have become more conflicted about her rhetoric about the war, especially because of a slogan she has used frequently that is widely seen as calling for the eradication of Israel.

The measure advanced earlier Tuesday and was rushed to the floor for a final vote.

Rep. Brad Schneider, D-Ill., the lone Democrat to vote with Republicans on Tuesday to advance the censure resolution, said he believed it was important to debate the slogan “from the river to the sea.”

“It is nothing else but the call for the destruction of Israel and murder of Jews,” the Jewish Democrat said. “I will always defend the right to free speech. Tlaib has the right to say whatever she wants.”

He added, “But it cannot go unanswered.” It was unclear if Schneider would support the resolution on final passage.

While the censure of a lawmaker carries no practical effect, it amounts to a severe reproach from colleagues, as lawmakers who are censured are asked to stand in the well of the House as the censure resolution against them is read aloud.

With the vote, Tlaib will become the second Muslim-American woman in Congress to be formally admonished this year for her criticism of the Jewish state. Rep. Ilhan Omar, R-Minn., was removed in February from the House Foreign Affairs Committee for similar comments she made about Israel.

The censure push resulted in a dramatic vote on the House floor amid political tensions over the ongoing, deadly Israel-Hamas war. While the majority of both parties have historically stood firmly on the side of Israel, divisions have emerged in the Democratic Party about the American response.

While the vote against Tlaib will take place against the extraordinary backdrop of the war, the push to censure her is part of a growing pattern in the House.

Censure had long been viewed as a punishment of last resort, just one step below expulsion and to be triggered only for the most egregious wrongdoing. But censure resolutions are quickly becoming routine in the chamber, often wielded in strikingly partisan ways.

Many Democrats and some Republicans who opposed censuring Tlaib cited free speech and warned of the precedent it would set.

“This resolution not only degrades our Constitution, but it cheapens the meaning of discipline in this body for people who actually commit wrongful actions like bribery, fraud, violent assault and so on,” said Rep. Jamie Raskin, D-Md., who defended Tlaib against the resolution on the floor late Tuesday.

“Free Speech for Me but not for thee”

And I do believe in generally “From River to Sea - Palestine will be free” is a call for genocide. Since I am not a mind reader I have no idea what Representative Tlaib means by it. Be that as it may opposing censorship of speech one finds offensive is hard, it goes against human instinct, it could cost you great friends whom agree with you about said speech, which makes it exactly the right time to oppose censorship of said speech. f**k cancel culture.


_________________
“Self Acceptance is a process not a performance”
“You are autistic enough. And you always have been”

Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity.


funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 41
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 34,202
Location: Right over your left shoulder

08 Nov 2023, 3:49 pm

Doesn't Palestine currently occupy land along the river and the sea already?

Regardless of what was initially meant by the phrase, it's non-specific enough that a lot of people throwing it around probably aren't meaning the very worst interpretations of it.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 71
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

08 Nov 2023, 8:04 pm

Palestine has a piece of land on the sea, and a piece of land along the Jordan River.

But they dont link up to form a contiguous piece of land.

So Palestine does not stretch from "river to sea" the way that the USA stretches from "sea to shining sea".

And actually neither does Israel (Israel sans the Occupied Territories). Though Israel is a contiguous piece of land the western banks of the Jordan River are mostly in...well..."the West Bank"(owned by Palestine).

Extremists on both sides (Zionist and Arab) both demand an "Israel/Palestine stretching from river to sea". Implying major ethnic cleansing either way...to achieve whichever dream they are espousing.

So if a US congresswoman spouts "river to sea" talk it implies some serious radicalism on the issue. Whether she means it that way or not.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

08 Nov 2023, 9:03 pm

From the river to the sea is a call to arms, everyone knows that. That's why she is censured.



Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

08 Nov 2023, 9:55 pm

Not cancel culture; she said something genuinely offensive, in public, and was rebuked by her colleagues for it, totally normal stuff. This isn't a truck driver absently making an "OK" gesture and getting fired because a dumb liberal got the vapors, or some kid who had an ancient and at the time anodyne remark unearthed years later and used to damage their reputation.


_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez


Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,056
Location: New York City (Queens)

08 Nov 2023, 11:33 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Palestine has a piece of land on the sea, and a piece of land along the Jordan River.

But they dont link up to form a contiguous piece of land.

So Palestine does not stretch from "river to sea" the way that the USA stretches from "sea to shining sea".

And actually neither does Israel (Israel sans the Occupied Territories). Though Israel is a contiguous piece of land the western banks of the Jordan River are mostly in...well..."the West Bank"(owned by Palestine).

Extremists on both sides (Zionist and Arab) both demand an "Israel/Palestine stretching from river to sea". Implying major ethnic cleansing either way...to achieve whichever dream they are espousing.

Not just these extremists, but also moderates who want the one and only solution that does NOT involve any ethnic cleansing (including perpetuation of the original 1948 ethnic cleansing, the Nakba): a single unified Israel-Palestine in which everyone has equal rights.

The point is that more and more people, on all sides of the issue, have given up on the two-state solution.

naturalplastic wrote:
So if a US congresswoman spouts "river to sea" talk it implies some serious radicalism on the issue.

Not necessarily. See above.

As far as I can tell, most pro-Palestinian people these days want a single state in which everyone has equal rights.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.


naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 71
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

08 Nov 2023, 11:45 pm

I guess so. If she had said "Mexicans are rapists and murderers", or talked about "Jewish lasers" that woulda been fine.

But not saying "free from river to sea". :D



ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 39,637
Location: Long Island, New York

09 Nov 2023, 5:18 am

Dox47 wrote:
Not cancel culture; she said something genuinely offensive, in public, and was rebuked by her colleagues for it, totally normal stuff. This isn't a truck driver absently making an "OK" gesture and getting fired because a dumb liberal got the vapors, or some kid who had an ancient and at the time anodyne remark unearthed years later and used to damage their reputation.

Would a representative have been censured if something like that was said 30 years ago? Universally condemned, yes. Formally censored I doubt it. Metastasizing antisemitism is a societal problem largely outside of Congressional control. Representatives need to be seen as doing something about it. This was a dressed-up virtue signal.

What has changed? Situations like those you described above have made it more acceptable to try and silence all levels of offensive speech perceived or otherwise.


_________________
“Self Acceptance is a process not a performance”
“You are autistic enough. And you always have been”

Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity.


Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,056
Location: New York City (Queens)

09 Nov 2023, 7:16 am

Dox47 wrote:
Not cancel culture; she said something genuinely offensive, in public, and was rebuked by her colleagues for it, totally normal stuff. This isn't a truck driver absently making an "OK" gesture and getting fired because a dumb liberal got the vapors, or some kid who had an ancient and at the time anodyne remark unearthed years later and used to damage their reputation.

So your definition of "cancel culture" is limited to situations like the latter? I'll keep that in mind....


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.


Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,056
Location: New York City (Queens)

09 Nov 2023, 8:07 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
And I do believe in generally “From River to Sea - Palestine will be free” is a call for genocide.

The important question is what the majority of people who chant that slogan actually mean.

As this Al Jazeera article points out, the exact slogan “From the River to the Sea - Palestine will be free” is an English-language slogan -- it rhymes in English, not Arabic. So it's primarily a slogan of Western Palestinian sympathizers who have given up on the idea of a two-state solution -- although this slogan does get used by people in the Middle East too, and it is derived from other variants of "from river to sea" that originated among Palestinians themselves.

And, as far as I can tell, most Western Palestinian sympathizers see Israel as being similar to Apartheid-era South Africa, for which the eventual solution was a single state encompassing everyone, with equal rights. This would actually be the one solution that does NOT require ethnic cleansing of any kind, genocidal or otherwise, against either Jews or indigenous Palestinians.

More generally, "From the river to the sea" and similar expressions are used by a wide variety of people (including Palestinians and even Israelis) who favor a single state, of whatever kind and from whatever point of view (including Likud's "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty").

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Since I am not a mind reader I have no idea what Representative Tlaib means by it.

Rashida Tlaib spells out her position here:

Quote:
“So much is about ‘let’s choose a side,’” she continued, opining on the Israeli-Arab conflict. “I am for making sure that every single person there has every right to thrive.”

[...]

“One state,” she said in response to a question about whether she supports a one- or two-state solution. “It has to be one state. Separate but equal does not work. I’m only 42 years old but my teachers were of that generation that marched with Martin Luther King. This whole idea of a two-state solution, it doesn’t work.”


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.


Last edited by Mona Pereth on 09 Nov 2023, 1:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,056
Location: New York City (Queens)

09 Nov 2023, 12:52 pm

As for what Palestinians themselves have historically meant by "From the River to the Sea" and variants thereof, see the following:

- ‘From The River To The Sea’ Doesn’t Mean What You Think It Means by Maha Nassar, Forward, December 3, 2018.
- How interpretations of the phrase 'from the river to the sea' made it so divisive by Joe Hernandez, NPR, November 9, 2023.
- A page critiquing the idea that "'From the River to the Sea' is a call to genocide" in the Myths section of the website Decolonize Palestine.

Brief summary: To the vast majority of Palestinians, various slogans containing that phrase are a call for single democratic state with equal rights for everyone living in Israel/Palestine.

According to the Forward article, "And notwithstanding the extreme rhetoric of some leaders on both sides, a recent joint poll shows that only a small minority of Palestinians see “expulsion” as a solution to the conflict – 15% — which is incidentally the same percentage of Israelis who view this as the only solution."


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.


ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 39,637
Location: Long Island, New York

09 Nov 2023, 1:05 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
And I do believe in generally “From River to Sea - Palestine will be free” is a call for genocide.

The important question is what the majority of people who chant that slogan actually mean.

As this Al Jazeera article points out, “From the River to the Sea - Palestine will be free” is an English-language slogan -- it rhymes in English, not Arabic. So it's primarily a slogan of Western Palestinian sympathizers who have given up on the idea of a two-state solution.

And, as far as I can tell, most people in this category see Israel as being similar to Apartheid-era South Africa, for which the eventual solution was a single state encompassing everyone, with equal rights. This would actually be the one solution that does NOT require ethnic cleansing of any kind, genocidal or otherwise, against either Jews or indigenous Palestinians.

More generally, "From river to sea" and similar expressions are used by a wide variety of people (including people in Israel/Palestine) who favor a single state, of whatever kind and from whatever point of view (including Likud's "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty").

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Since I am not a mind reader I have no idea what Representative Tlaib means by it.

Rashida Tlaib spells out her position here:

Quote:
“So much is about ‘let’s choose a side,’” she continued, opining on the Israeli-Arab conflict. “I am for making sure that every single person there has every right to thrive.”

[...]

“One state,” she said in response to a question about whether she supports a one- or two-state solution. “It has to be one state. Separate but equal does not work. I’m only 42 years old but my teachers were of that generation that marched with Martin Luther King. This whole idea of a two-state solution, it doesn’t work.”

Like I said I am not a mind reader. I do not know if she genuinely believes what she said above or is being disingenuous. I find it hard to believe whomever popularized the phrase in recent years did not have a ethnic cleansing/genocidal intent. When you put it in the context of all else that has been going on is hard to come to any other conclusion. Legal as it is I definitely put the poster ripping in the same category. When you rip down a poster of a hostage especially a child or baby you are saying symbolically that group should not exist. FWIW in the context of “creating facts on the ground” , Likud's "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty" is in that same ethnic cleansing/genocidal category.

Putting the correctness of my interpretation of the slogan aside when you spend years criticizing cancel culture, saying one must stop being being snowflakes, saying one needs to be deal with speech one finds offensive it is the height of hypocrisy to say this is so bad let’s make an exception. You make that one exception it becomes easier to make then next one, then even easier to make the next one after that. That is just human nature.

I have spent the last few years warning about the dangers of calling into question election results
one does not like. Tlaib is a legitimately elected Congresswomen probably representing the views of her district. While censure is not expulsion it is the closest thing congress can do sans expulsion.

In conclusion, the political climate in America in the last few years makes censuring Tlaib both too easy and reckless.


_________________
“Self Acceptance is a process not a performance”
“You are autistic enough. And you always have been”

Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity.


Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,056
Location: New York City (Queens)

09 Nov 2023, 2:10 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I find it hard to believe whomever popularized the phrase in recent years did not have a ethnic cleansing/genocidal intent. When you put it in the context of all else that has been going on is hard to come to any other conclusion.

At least here in the West, the slogan was popularized by left-wing anti-Zionists, including Jewish groups like Jewish Voice for Peace. Western left-wing anti-Zionists do not advocate genocide, period. They advocate either (1) the 2-state solution or (2) a single democratic state for everyone in Israel/Palestine. "From the River to the Sea, Palestine shall be free" is a slogan of those who advocate the latter.

I know less about the political scene in the Middle East, since I've never been there. I do know that the 1988 Hamas charter contained a lot of classic anti-Jewish conspiracy claims and other tropes, which were subsequently dropped from the 2017 version. On the other hand, I also know that all too many Zionists, both Jewish and Christian, both in Israel and here in the U.S.A, have had a tendency to engage in anti-Arab and anti-Muslim panic-mongering, some of which has been very obviously nonsensical, especially when it has spilled over into local NYC politics.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Legal as it is I definitely put the poster ripping in the same category. When you rip down a poster of a hostage especially a child or baby you are saying symbolically that group should not exist

I'm not sure what to think of the poster-rippers.

They certainly could have been motivated by hatred of Jews, as you explain above. And there has certainly been a recent increase in anti-Jewish bigotry, including hate crimes. So you have good reason to be worried.

On the other hand, I also can easily imagine the following thoughts going through a poster-ripper's head: "If I were to put up similar posters about children being killed or maimed in Gaza, they would get torn down immediately. That being the case, why should I tolerate someone using the plight of a comparatively few Israeli children to whip up pro-Israel/anti-Palestinian sentiment?"

I don't personally know any poster-rippers (at least not in this context), so I don't know what their motives are, nor do I have any good way to find out. Maybe different poster-rippers had different motives?

Whatever the motives of the poster-rippers in particular, I agree that anti-Jewish bigotry is a real problem that has been spiking lately.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
FWIW in the context of “creating facts on the ground” , Likud's "between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty" is in that same ethnic cleansing/genocidal category.

Indeed it is.

As I keep saying, the only solution that does NOT involve ethnic cleansing, of some kind, would be a single democratic state with equal rights for all.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Putting the correctness of my interpretation of the slogan aside when you spend years criticizing cancel culture, saying one must stop being being snowflakes, saying one needs to be deal with speech one finds offensive it is the height of hypocrisy to say this is so bad let’s make an exception. You make that one exception it becomes easier to make then next one, then even easier to make the next one after that. That is just human nature.

I have spent the last few years warning about the dangers of calling into question election results one does not like. Tlaib is a legitimately elected Congresswomen probably representing the views of her district. While censure is not expulsion it is the closest thing congress can do sans expulsion.

In conclusion in the context of climate of America in the last few years makes censuring Tlaib is both too easy and reckless.

Yes, you are one of the few consistent political moderates here.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.


Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

09 Nov 2023, 6:10 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Would a representative have been censured if something like that was said 30 years ago? Universally condemned, yes. Formally censored I doubt it.


What makes you think that? I could certainly see someone being censured for saying something, say, supportive of the Taliban in the post 9/11 era, or for praising South Africa in the 80s.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
What has changed? Situations like those you described above have made it more acceptable to try and silence all levels of offensive speech perceived or otherwise.


Again, I'd be agreeing with you if this was some nobody who was being punished for a bad opinion, or an old one that wasn't controversial at the time, but an elected official speaking in her official capacity is a different kettle of fish, particularly when we're not just talking the slogan but also refusing to back down from the debunked hospital bombing story.


_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

09 Nov 2023, 8:59 pm

Congresswomen is stoking antisemitism
https://www.npr.org/2023/11/08/12114599 ... protesters

Kessler's death is likely to be upgraded to a hate crime, His killers seem to fled the scene when the cops turned up.



Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

09 Nov 2023, 9:24 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Kessler's death is likely to be upgraded to a hate crime, His killers seem to fled the scene when the cops turned up.


Eh, that seems like a stretch, I don't think the killing was intentional and it was done in hot blood during a confrontation at a protest, a hate crime would be more like sucker punching someone cause they were wearing a yarmulke.


_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez