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beneficii
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08 Jun 2015, 1:55 am

I thought this article made some good points:

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Do women and men have different brains?

Back when Lawrence H. Summers was president of Harvard and suggested that they did, the reaction was swift and merciless. Pundits branded him sexist. Faculty members deemed him a troglodyte. Alumni withheld donations.

But when Bruce Jenner said much the same thing in an April interview with Diane Sawyer, he was lionized for his bravery, even for his progressivism.

“My brain is much more female than it is male,” he told her, explaining how he knew that he was transgender.


A lot in the trans community are so desperate for legitimacy that they're quite willing to ride roughshod over women.

Well, my browser won't let me copy and paste what's ahead, but I think trans activists banning the use of the word vagina to be particularly bad. Jesus Christ! For many trans activists, clearly, there is no respect for other groups, only for what the trans activists want.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opini ... woman.html


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devin12
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08 Jun 2015, 3:11 am

I think if you feel like a woman inside you're a woman.



Zajie
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08 Jun 2015, 3:52 am

You determine your gender from your reproductive system and as for way of thinking males and females do have different brain structures



Magneto
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08 Jun 2015, 7:03 am

Huh? If men and women have different brain structures, then surely *that* is where gender is located, rather than the reproductive system. People, after all, have an innate sense of their gender that doesn't require them to check their genitals - a man who loses his penis and testicles will still consider himself a man, he won't change his identity because he no longer has male reproductive organs.

Can we just rationalist taboo the word gender?

It seems to be pretty clear now that there are actual differences between male and female brains, despite what the gender-is-a-social-construct crowd want to believe.

As regards the question in the OP, the straight dictionary definition is an adult human female. So the best question to ask then is, what makes a person female? Or, what aspects of being female - neurological, genetic, anatomical, gonadal - are most important in order for an individual to be a woman? It's not a controversial position to take that there are multiple aspects to sex, not just the genitals (as the TERFs like to reduce women to) or the chromosomes (as the religion right like to reduce women to); this is accepted by most biologists.

As far as society goes... since it is composed of relations between persons, and since personhood is (as far as we can tell) located in the brain, it makes sense to consider someone sociallly a woman based on (1) how they present, and (2) their neuro-psychological sex. Of course, since we are incapable of mind melds, you'll just have to take people's word on what they say their psychological gender is.

I still think this belongs in PPR.


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Magneto
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08 Jun 2015, 7:11 am

Also, what is it with these... people... who define woman based on the way they're treated by society? For one, not all cisgendered women will have such experiences - by excluding them, they are trampling on other women's identities. For two, the very world they claim to want would not treat women in such a way, and therefore would not - by their claims - have any actual women in it.

Are they that self-deluded that they cannot see the innate stupidity of their own position?


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beneficii
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08 Jun 2015, 10:32 am

Magneto wrote:
Huh? If men and women have different brain structures, then surely *that* is where gender is located, rather than the reproductive system. People, after all, have an innate sense of their gender that doesn't require them to check their genitals - a man who loses his penis and testicles will still consider himself a man, he won't change his identity because he no longer has male reproductive organs.

Can we just rationalist taboo the word gender?

It seems to be pretty clear now that there are actual differences between male and female brains, despite what the gender-is-a-social-construct crowd want to believe.

As regards the question in the OP, the straight dictionary definition is an adult human female. So the best question to ask then is, what makes a person female? Or, what aspects of being female - neurological, genetic, anatomical, gonadal - are most important in order for an individual to be a woman? It's not a controversial position to take that there are multiple aspects to sex, not just the genitals (as the TERFs like to reduce women to) or the chromosomes (as the religion right like to reduce women to); this is accepted by most biologists.

As far as society goes... since it is composed of relations between persons, and since personhood is (as far as we can tell) located in the brain, it makes sense to consider someone sociallly a woman based on (1) how they present, and (2) their neuro-psychological sex. Of course, since we are incapable of mind melds, you'll just have to take people's word on what they say their psychological gender is.

I still think this belongs in PPR.


Webster's dictionary defines female as being a member of the sex that produces egg cells. Girl and woman would best be defined as as those humans perceived to belong to the female sex.

As for the so-called neurological sex, there is no support of the literature. One may cite the BSTc and other studies, but if one were to examine them closely, one would find that they show only correlation, there is heavy overlap among categories, and they do not rule out the drip drip drip of gendered socialization being the deciding factor.


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beneficii
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08 Jun 2015, 10:35 am

Magneto wrote:
Also, what is it with these... people... who define woman based on the way they're treated by society? For one, not all cisgendered women will have such experiences - by excluding them, they are trampling on other women's identities. For two, the very world they claim to want would not treat women in such a way, and therefore would not - by their claims - have any actual women in it.

Are they that self-deluded that they cannot see the innate stupidity of their own position?


Girls and women are for the most part treated as second-class citizens in society. You can perhaps find some highly privileged members, but think about it. You grow up classed as a girl/woman, you grow up being told you are valued for your beauty over any other traits you may posses, you get ignored and talked over in favor of the boys and men in conversation, having to deal with unwanted sexual advances along with the threats of rape and unwanted pregnancy, and you are generally moved over to being a housewife in society. You find that you must subordinate your individual interests for those of others.

Now here comes a highly privileged, highly successful man's man who immediately claims to be just like you because of his feelings: He claims to know what it feels like to be a woman. It's no surprise that many women are rolling their eyes, all the way into the back of their heads. Even worse, the first thing he does is reinforce the idea that women are valued only for their beauty!


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Magneto
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08 Jun 2015, 12:28 pm

Oh come on. The steady drip-drip of privilege? I really don't think humans are somehow different to all other animals when it comes to gendered brains. Or are you seriously claiming that mice and macaques have systems of privilege that not only ensure the males and females behave differently, but are intelligent enough that the ones whose hormones were altered in development will pick up on the cues that tell them to behave as the opposite sex?

Face it - humans are not tabula rasa's when it comes to gender. We don't come out of the womb with identitical brains, which are then altered steadily by the way we're treated, and in remarkably consistent ways. Any theory of gendered socialisation being the cause is a Greenfieldism - I point to x, I point to y, that is all. I point to gendered socialisation, I point to changes in the brain, that is all. We already did the (unethical) experiments on this (see: David Reimer), and the findings do not agree with the tabula rasa idea. The idea of tabula rasa when it comes to gender currently belongs in the not even wrong category, and will remain there for the forseeable future.

As regards privilege, it strips womanhood from women who had the exact upbringing a lot of feminists claim they want, because they haven't been exposed to the "patriarchy". What nonsense is this?


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08 Jun 2015, 2:42 pm

Sorry it wasn't clear, maybe this is clearer:
What I meant: if someone for example had a male reproductive system even if it was lost or something, originally having a male reproductive system indicates that your whole body structure is male so your brain structure would be as well



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08 Jun 2015, 4:42 pm

That would be the case - if human development worked perfectly every time. But it doesn't.


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08 Jun 2015, 5:19 pm

Not having a penis attached would be my first thought.


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Magneto
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09 Jun 2015, 5:05 am

Huh? "Man is that which has a penis, woman is that which is not man"?


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09 Jun 2015, 7:51 am

Zajie wrote:
You determine your gender from your reproductive system and as for way of thinking males and females do have different brain structures


Actually, gender is a cultural construct. Sex is biological. It would be accurate to say that your sex is determined by your genes while gender is determined by your brain and then the label of said gender is determined by culture.

So you could be born biologically male but your brain wire itself female as you grow up and the culture you live in assigns you the labels of 'male' at birth then 'transgender' when you choose to live as female.

As for the OP...yes it is true. Females and males do have noticeably different brain wiring. There's a reason why females are much better at verbal fencing than males in general and why males in general are much better at hand/eye coordination and spatial awareness. The brain also has slight differences among the different 'races' but the idiocy of political correctness prevents science from establishing that fact.



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09 Jun 2015, 8:37 am

Magneto wrote:
Oh come on. The steady drip-drip of privilege? I really don't think humans are somehow different to all other animals when it comes to gendered brains. Or are you seriously claiming that mice and macaques have systems of privilege that not only ensure the males and females behave differently, but are intelligent enough that the ones whose hormones were altered in development will pick up on the cues that tell them to behave as the opposite sex?


Um, yeah, 100%. There are homosexual animals in the wild, a number of species have dominant females both in physical size and social interaction, and a whole plethora of other sexual behaviors between the genders that most humans would find bizarre-- not to mention those that reproduce asexually. Gender identity in the wild is as much a social construct as it is in human society.

As for "systems of privilege" that influence those expressions, that would be "pack" mentality for wolves or "schooling" mentality for fishes, or "hive" behavior for bees. A huge amount of species rely on numbers for survival power, that creates a social context. The power structure of these animal groups operate just like human power structures do: do as the pack does or gtfo because you're different. Being a gay wolf is gonna get you booted out of the pack and your survival chances plummet, so survival instinct will drive the gay wolf to fit with the pack and play hetero.



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09 Jun 2015, 10:19 am

Born with a female brain
born with a female body (body and brain probably being the same thing when you get down to it)

Pretty simple.


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