Board index › Coping in life › The Haven

Do not kill yourself

Page 2 of 3 [ 46 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

28 Feb 2012, 10:47 am

b9 wrote:
if i committed suicide, i would make it look like murder so as people that loved me would not be sad.

either i would bludgeon myself to death with a blunt object, or i would shoot myself in a drive by shooting.


I think they would still be sad if they thought you got murdered.


_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.


Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

28 Feb 2012, 10:57 am

Greatsharkbite wrote:
I don't think suicide is evil, but I do think suicide is selfish in a sense.

Selfish isn't always a bad thing, but I don't agree with suicide either.

I mean ask yourself this question.. Would you want a loved one to get shot or stabbed to death? Wouldn't that hurt you pretty deeply?

Now imagine that they themselves did it.. are you going to say it hurts less because they did it to themselves? No, you're just going to wonder what you could've done to help or how it could've been prevented.

My problem with the idea.. is most people who commit suicide, do not look at the entire picture. Thats what depression does to a person in the first place. It does hurt the people who care about you, but I will say I don't know how selfish that is.

A cousin and I talked about that a few years back and I kinda agreed at the time, but a truly depressed person would be in such pain and misery that I don't know if a thought like your death hurting or even mattering to loved ones would occur in the first place.


It occurs, and it does not help when people rub in the 'its the most selfish thing ever' rubbish....but it is possible to feel like in the long run they would be better without you. So yes there is the knowledge it will make people sad but there is also the feeling of worthlessness and others being better off........I guess one of my issues was feeling like all I did was cause problems for everyone else, still trying not to let thoughts like that take control but it can be quite difficult.

But yes if someone I cared about died I would be sad...and it might take me a while to get over it. However everyone experiances grief at least once, not everyone understands how it feels to be severely depressed or suicidal. I mean I am not trying to downplay how sad such situations are......But typically most people recover from grief more or less. Since when do people spend their whole life obsessing over how another persons death effected them? I haven't seen it and if I did I would probably attribute it to a psychological disorder or maybe selfishness.


_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.


WorldsEdge
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 458
Location: Massachusetts

28 Feb 2012, 12:47 pm

Ysone wrote:
Think about it. It is the most selfish thing you can do to anyone in the world.


Very well. I've thought about it. And decided you're wrong.

Quote:
This is more than being sociopathic. it is egotistic and evil.


Please explain what you mean by "sociopathic" and "evil," and then offer some reasonable proof that suicide is worse than the first, and is always and everywhere consistent with the second. As things stand, you've simply made wild, unsupported assertions.

Quote:
If you hate yourself, you should try to be better.
You are loving yourself so much that you would rather prosecute the world than to do anything to help the world.


Umm, which is it? Love? Hate? Both? Neither? :roll:

Quote:
Do not do it.
Take this piece of advice and you already are a better person that who you were a minute ago.
Get some help. Asking for help is brave. Because it is based on the belief that you want to be better.
Be better.


I fail to see how any of the above makes either myself or anyone else a better person.

Quote:
Forgive yourself. That is what is important.
We love ya.


Your "love" must be a very strange beast indeed, if you're extending it to all and sundry, including those you do not know and never will know.

As for myself, I decline to reciprocate your "love," (sorry) but at the same time feel no particular animus towards you. If you can make a more compelling case against suicide, I'll be more than happy to read it, but, please, hold the bromides.


_________________
"The man who has fed the chicken every day throughout its life at last wrings its neck instead, showing that more refined views as to the uniformity of nature would have been useful to the chicken." ? Bertrand Russell


kestrel
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Jan 2012
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 574
Location: Ohio

28 Feb 2012, 12:52 pm

For the sake of sanity, I treated the terms "sociopath," "evil," and "world," in the OP as I would were they interchangeable with "floof," "fluff," and "big rock orbiting large ball of burning gas." They seem to hold no content other than an emotional load.



WorldsEdge
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2009
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 458
Location: Massachusetts

28 Feb 2012, 1:23 pm

Greatsharkbite wrote:
My problem with the idea.. is most people who commit suicide, do not look at the entire picture.


What human being is ever capable of seeing the "entire picture," whether the decision concerns something trivial, say, ordering lunch, or something vitally important, as with deciding who to marry?

And what would happen if you were to try? I'd suggest the result would be something akin to catatonia, resulting in utter paralysis and no decision on any topic ever being reached.

Of course, when the decision on order is suicide, yes or no, there's the added twist that a "yes" decision carried to completion is a trip down a one-way street where reconsideration is an impossibility, I concede that. But to consider the decision itself an error since it is necessarily based on incomplete evidence strikes me as by definition wrong, as there is simply no such thing as a decision -- any decision! -- made by a human being in possession of the "entire picture."

Quote:
Thats what depression does to a person in the first place. It does hurt the people who care about you, but I will say I don't know how selfish that is.


Not everyone who is suicidal is necessarily depressed, and not everyone who is depressed has suicidal thoughts. There's a degree of overlap -- doubtless a large one -- but some sources consider rational suicide (free of any mental illness) a reality, others an infinitesmal possibility. IOW, the whole issue seems quite open to debate.


_________________
"The man who has fed the chicken every day throughout its life at last wrings its neck instead, showing that more refined views as to the uniformity of nature would have been useful to the chicken." ? Bertrand Russell


Greatsharkbite
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jun 2009
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 711

28 Feb 2012, 1:58 pm

Quote:
But typically most people recover from grief more or less. Since when do people spend their whole life obsessing over how another persons death effected them? I haven't seen it and if I did I would probably attribute it to a psychological disorder or maybe selfishness.


I disagree. Haven't seen it? People don't have to talk about it a lifetime in order to be affected by it. Also its not a psychological disorder to love someone. Or to be affected by death in general.

I won't go into detail, but you haven't seen it? I have. I'm currently dealing with it. Just because a person becomes able to deal with it better doesn't mean the pain or hurt goes away.

Or lets say I kill myself? Would it ever be a positive experience for my mom when she thinks about how her only kid passed away before she did? The wonder in the back of her head what could've been done to prevent it? That type of thing can easily last forever.



TallyMan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,061

28 Feb 2012, 2:36 pm

Ysone wrote:
Think about it. It is the most selfish thing you can do to anyone in the world.
This is more than being sociopathic. it is egotistic and evil.
If you hate yourself, you should try to be better.
You are loving yourself so much that you would rather prosecute the world than to do anything to help the world.
Do not do it.
Take this piece of advice and you already are a better person that who you were a minute ago.
Get some help. Asking for help is brave. Because it is based on the belief that you want to be better.
Be better.
Forgive yourself. That is what is important.
We love ya.


Total load of bollocks.

You clearly have no idea what goes through the mind of people who are severely depressed and suicidal.

I've been there several times in my life and by a slim chance I'm still alive. I most certainly do not hate myself. What you seem oblivious to is the anguish and suffering that some people face on an ongoing basis, sometimes for many years before taking this drastic action.

Not wanting to hurt those close to you by committing suicide can become a shackle and makes living even more of a torture when the only reason you are continuing to do so is for other people. Year after year of pain and suffering with no hope for the future, just hanging on day at a time so as not to cause those close to you any anguish. Sooner or later that may not be enough and one day you decide "enough, that's it".


_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.


Last edited by TallyMan on 28 Feb 2012, 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

eigerpere
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 371

28 Feb 2012, 2:43 pm

^ THAT



CrazyCatLord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,177

28 Feb 2012, 4:20 pm

Ysone wrote:
Think about it. It is the most selfish thing you can do to anyone in the world.
This is more than being sociopathic. it is egotistic and evil.
If you hate yourself, you should try to be better.
You are loving yourself so much that you would rather prosecute the world than to do anything to help the world.
Do not do it.
Take this piece of advice and you already are a better person that who you were a minute ago.
Get some help. Asking for help is brave. Because it is based on the belief that you want to be better.
Be better.
Forgive yourself. That is what is important.


People have the right to end their lives. And unless they leave small children behind, they don't make a selfish decision. It can be a bad decision as a result of a mental condition, but it is not selfish.

What is utterly and despicably selfish is the notion that other people who don't find their life worthwhile owe you their continued existence. They don't. Please realize your true motives and stop objectifying people as assets that exist for your enjoyment. Their life belongs to nobody but themselves.

Quote:
We love ya.


No you don't. That might be true in some specific cases, but it is definitely false as a generalized statement. In my experience, if you let people know that you are depressed, you will quickly run out of friends.

The reason for this is the same mindset that is evident in your post, namely "other people owe me something, they exist to make me feel good". Depressed people aren't very entertaining. On the contrary, they tend to drag other people down. That's why their so-called friends drop them like a hot potatoe.

(Disclaimer: I'm not suicidal, but I will end my life as soon as it is no longer bearable for medical reasons. That's only rational, much unlike a slow and painful death in a hospital bed).



MXH
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,057
Location: Here i stand and face the rain

28 Feb 2012, 4:42 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Ysone wrote:
Think about it. It is the most selfish thing you can do to anyone in the world.
This is more than being sociopathic. it is egotistic and evil.
If you hate yourself, you should try to be better.
You are loving yourself so much that you would rather prosecute the world than to do anything to help the world.
Do not do it.
Take this piece of advice and you already are a better person that who you were a minute ago.
Get some help. Asking for help is brave. Because it is based on the belief that you want to be better.
Be better.
Forgive yourself. That is what is important.
We love ya.


Total load of bollocks.

You clearly have no idea what goes through the mind of people who are severely depressed and suicidal.

I've been there several times in my life and by a slim chance I'm still alive. I most certainly do not hate myself. What you seem oblivious to is the anguish and suffering that some people face on an ongoing basis, sometimes for many years before taking this drastic action.

Not wanting to hurt those close to you by committing suicide can become a shackle and makes living even more of a torture when the only reason you are continuing to do so is for other people. Year after year of pain and suffering with no hope for the future, just hanging on day at a time so as not to cause those close to you any anguish. Sooner or later that may not be enough and one day you decide "enough, that's it".


Quite agree.



Shadewraith
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 19 Nov 2011
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 259

28 Feb 2012, 5:04 pm

I think TC's heart is in the right place, but they went about it the wrong way. It's easy to say "Don't kill yourself. It's selfish. You need to love yourself more", but it makes it sound like some easy solution. Everyone's reasons for not committing suicide is different. I dislike myself and I generally dislike people. But I do love my fiancee and I'm the type of person who needs to know things. If I'm dead, I won't know what comes next.


_________________
Radda Radda


Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

28 Feb 2012, 5:12 pm

Greatsharkbite wrote:
Quote:
But typically most people recover from grief more or less. Since when do people spend their whole life obsessing over how another persons death effected them? I haven't seen it and if I did I would probably attribute it to a psychological disorder or maybe selfishness.


I disagree. Haven't seen it? People don't have to talk about it a lifetime in order to be affected by it. Also its not a psychological disorder to love someone. Or to be affected by death in general.

I won't go into detail, but you haven't seen it? I have. I'm currently dealing with it. Just because a person becomes able to deal with it better doesn't mean the pain or hurt goes away.

Or lets say I kill myself? Would it ever be a positive experience for my mom when she thinks about how her only kid passed away before she did? The wonder in the back of her head what could've been done to prevent it? That type of thing can easily last forever.


I never said those things were a disorder, I said grief is a normal process people go through when they lose a loved one, of course it is painful. However a lot of times when someone is suicidal they are in too much pain of their own to put the fact that other people will have to greive their death first...and using that point to talk someone out of it can actually be dangerous as it more or less implies their feelings and pain are less important then everyone else's which can in turn feed into the suicidal feelings


_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.


eigerpere
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 371

28 Feb 2012, 5:15 pm

Nice points, Sweetleaf.



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

28 Feb 2012, 5:18 pm

Another thing is when it comes to suicide, its something someone does to their self....the focus should be on that and why they as an individual deserve to feel better about them-self. One factor in a lot of suicides is feeling worthless, feeling like no one cares. So using the 'shame on you for not putting your unbearable pain aside, so people don't have to deal with your death' approach in my mind is likely to make it worse.


_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.


MXH
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,057
Location: Here i stand and face the rain

28 Feb 2012, 7:24 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Another thing is when it comes to suicide, its something someone does to their self....the focus should be on that and why they as an individual deserve to feel better about them-self. One factor in a lot of suicides is feeling worthless, feeling like no one cares. So using the 'shame on you for not putting your unbearable pain aside, so people don't have to deal with your death' approach in my mind is likely to make it worse.


I can see that. Though for me that approach didnt really work as there was always a lack of people thatd be hurt by my death



Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,278
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

28 Feb 2012, 7:32 pm

MXH wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Another thing is when it comes to suicide, its something someone does to their self....the focus should be on that and why they as an individual deserve to feel better about them-self. One factor in a lot of suicides is feeling worthless, feeling like no one cares. So using the 'shame on you for not putting your unbearable pain aside, so people don't have to deal with your death' approach in my mind is likely to make it worse.


I can see that. Though for me that approach didnt really work as there was always a lack of people thatd be hurt by my death


there certainly is not just one single right approach...but I am of the opinion the approach I said would make it worse would not help in either instance.


_________________
Tis the time to melt the Ice.