Using 'concrete' thinking to beat depression

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well you did post in the Haven, so I don't know what you expected since a lot of people who post in this section are depressed...

agreed. Its kinda expected to get people who dont have this work to post

I agree with Sweetleaf and MXH.

I don't think it is that ironic; but predictable considering the nature of the Haven.

i think that this is possible to a large degree. the techniques behind it are essentially the same as for Cognitive Behaviour Therapy (which is equally as effective as medicines, but without the side effects). it is really is possible to change the way your mind works.


i think people on the thread may be misunderstanding in a sense. basically, there is a big difference between thinking something abstract and global and something specific and reasonable:

"i'm incompetent" vs "i didn't perform to my potential on my last review at work. my people skills need some work"

"i'm an idiot" vs "i find maths really hard because of the way my mind works so i need to get a tutor"

"i'm ugly" vs "that girl didn't find me attractive in seventh grade"

"my life sucks and is not worth living" vs "i have had several tragedies lately and i am finding it hard to cope"


frankly, depression is like a monster that blows everything out of proportion. what i have noticed with my self and with other depressed people is that if you talk to us about what *exactly* is wrong, it is never as bad as we believe it to be. actual true events are never so horrible as our brains paint them. sometimes i've had the benefit of a friend or therapist to snap things back into proportion for me, but being able to do it inside my own head would be extremely useful.

i don't believe that most people on this thread have actually tried a program like CBT or the one linked in the OP, so the protestations that it will not work sound a bit dismissive without actually giving it a fair shot.

I think if you are one of the lucky ones who are helped by medications, then concrete thinking can help you manage. The thing is you have to work at it. You don't just magically start thinking differently. You have to first be aware of those negative thought patterns and then logically address them. I have a friend who suffers from excessive negative thinking. I gave her a ride the other day and when we got to her house, she heard her dogs barking in the back yard because someone down the street was setting off firecrackers. She interpreted this as a deliberate attack on her dogs and herself. No wonder she's always so miserable. It wouldn't occur to her that someone was just setting off firecrackers and didn't give her a second thought. All I'm saying is it doesn't hurt to listen to what you're thinking, which is often automatic, and challenge it.

We posted about the same time hyperlexian. I think you said it very well. There's a great bumper sticker out there that says " Don't believe everything you think."

I have to disagree. I've gone through CBT; it was helpful, but only in addition to medications. For me, there is more to depression than negative thinking. In my case CBT was not as effective as medicines.

so it did work. glad to hear it! that's all that Moog was saying - that it can work to treat depression. it's not going to be 100% of the time for 100% of the people who try it, but it has proven to be effective for some people (including you, to a degree).

I triad it. I didn't find it effective at all. The problem is a lot of the negative things aren't inaccurate. They just seem to impact me with a lot more emotional gravity than they do other people. I think being too analytical hurts me as well. I'm skeptical by nature and that doesn't seem to bode well for depression.

There are also a lot of time when the depressed feeling seems to precede the negative thinking. Or perhaps the thought is emerging from some place very deep and unconscious. Sometimes there's this nagging foreboding sense that just kind of hovers like a backdrop behind everything I'm currently doing or experiencing. It comes to the point where I feel like boredom is the enemy because whenever I'm not able to occupy my mind with something stimulating, that darkness is just there waiting to well up.

I also haven't found any thinking solution to the more insidious symptoms of anhedonia and complete lack of motivation. These symptoms can occur in the absence of any particular negative thought as well. There's all kinds of times where I just feel lethargic and empty for no particular reason. Only experimenting with medications helps to any large degree with this. Exercise can help temporarily but my endorphin levels don't seem to stay elevated for very long after a cease with physical activity.

I think forcing myself out of my comfort zone at times can be helpful though and sometimes a therapist can help with that. Part of depression is it gets you stuck and constantly thinking about things without the motivation to actually do anything new. That can be a pretty bad negative feedback as any problems you do have never get solved if all you do is think about them and constantly put off doing something that could at least distract yourself if not open up new opportunities.

CBT helped with social anxiety - got me to push myself into the world when I had been disengaging from it.

For depression, credit has to go to Effexor and Abilify. I don't like being dependant on medication to function, but that's just the way it is for me. I don't know for how long, but I know I was heading in a destructive direction before I started taking them.

I did CBT as a teenager, but it didn't work back then I wasn't medicated and honestly wasn't capable of doing it.

However, I remembered the techniques I learned and applied them when I was a bit older and on medication. It works, but it's a bit mechanical.

I don't think I need to see a Cognitive Behavioural therapist again as I have learned to apply the techniques. I went to see another therapist (not CBT) and she basically said as much and that I have a lot of good strategies for coping with depression. I am on a waiting list to see her at the moment, and the meds are keeping me going in the mean time.

EDIT: I've just thought of another reason CBT didn't work as a teenager. I have psychotic depression where the delusions and hallucinations are linked to low mood. It wouldn't have worked because I was hearing things that weren't there and believing stuff that wasn't true. I usually realise that these things are not real, but that doesn't stop them being annoying or make them go away. When you have elaborate paranoid ideas and hear people say negative things they don't actually say, it's too big for CBT to deal with. Thankfully, I've found that treating the low mood with meds also treats the psychosis and I haven't yet needed anti-psychotics.

CBT works for non-psychotic negative thinking, which is negative thoughts blown out of proportion, like you say. It's the difference between, 'I'm useless/stupid' and 'the cafeteria staff are poisoning my food and this letter I'm about to open is impregnated with harmful, psychotropic chemicals'. That sort of psychosis can occur with depression as well as schizophrenia (unfortunately). Tbh, when I was doing CBT, I was too embarrassed to log most of my thoughts because of how crazy they sounded.

I don't think people in this thread are being negative because they're depressed. I think they're pointing out that CBT and similar therapies have limitations and can't 'beat' depression. It's an important thing to point out.

Last edited by puddingmouse on 30 Nov 2011, 7:11 pm, edited 5 times in total.

But....what if the negative feelings you're feeling are the result of accurate thoughts about yourself?

Yeah, kinda like this. Well said.

It's not really as simple as "I failed one class in school. I'm stupid." It's more like "I'm failing at everything I do no matter how hard I try, so I'm a failure." The second statement sounds a lot more reasonable than the first statement and by virtue is a truer statement. Not that it's a true statement, mind you, but a lot of depressed people (including myself) aren't depressed because they want to be. Part of it could be chemical imbalance, but it's not always that simple.

If you fail over and over again for most of your life, concrete thinking will not help.

failing every single subject at school does not equal being a failure. that is a distortion. for all of the evidence a person is a failure, evidence to the contrary can be found.

Wow, this is EXACTLY how I experience depression. No amount of thinking adjustments (CBT) or talk therapy has ever touched it. Medications work temporarily for me (I've tried over 20 different kinds/regimens), as does vigorous exercise (I'm talking 7 days a week, longer than an hour at a time). Going out of my comfort zone could help, I think, if I didn't have persistent anhedonia and lack of motivation (plus if it involves doing something in a crowd, or interacting with lots of people, that's just anxiety-building). I had one therapist who had great suggestions for me, the only problem is that they were all VERY expensive. I couldn't believe the level of disconnect, that she could so nonchalantly suggest taking college courses, and buying expensive spa packages and vacations. Simply astounding. I know she meant well, but jeez. I'm sure she thought I was shooting things down just to be difficult.

The thing with anhedonia and lack of motivation is it can become a catch-22 situation. It tends to get worse when you don't get out enough, which in turn makes it harder to want to get out and do anything. Usually it's not the anxiety itself that stops me from doing things. It's the lack of energy to see overcoming the anxiety as something worthwhile or rewarding. I think some of it is that it gets hard to imagine feeling rewarded for my effort. It's hard to get better when it's impossible to picture yourself feeling better.

I thought that advice was obvious.