Subtle and Blatant Misogyny

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The second one shouldn't be the immediate response to all posts like that. Sometimes, you might well be able to reason with the people (who might be confused and genuinely upset), and show them how their reasoning is flawed.

Other times (especially when I've seen the kind of stuff written about women that made my skin crawl): yes, I agree.

no, reporting should be the automatic response, because if something is actually sexist, it breaks the rules and does not belong here. pretty simple.

interestingly, most members do try to reason with the member first and it has never, ever worked. at most, the member eventually shuts up but they do not change their future posts. i have seen 0 minds changed by arguing against sexism on the forums. i would not recommend bothering as it results in unnecessary flame wars and personal attacks. it is futile, and can even make things worse.

also, a recent study demonstrated that arguing actually tends to galvanise an opponent's position, so there is absolutely no point in it. best leave it to the moderators.

i should add... it has been helpful to me to read this thread, but also disheartening of course. i want to excise the sexism from the forum, but it is embedded deeply in some areas of the forum like a cancer. it does help to have reports, because then the moderators can see what is offensively sexist to the members, and not just to our eyes.

it helps to have members looking at stuff at telling us what they find offensive, instead of just having us decide what must be too sexist for the forums. members will sometimes complain in-thread, but the chances of a moderator stumbling on that are not great.

now... this isn't intended as a way to put any responsibility or blame onto the targets of the sexism. but if we can work together to fix the forum of some of the more problematic sexism, perhaps we will see things get a bit better. think of it like a community litter cleanup in springtime: i know you didn't make the mess but let's work together to clean it up. i am aware that not every situation is that black and white on the forum, and much of what we see is more insidious, but if you're seeing something insidious that is making a nasty environment for the opposite sex on the forum, we will have a look and see what we can do. not all moderation involves warnings and bannings - we will work with members too.

i know that we can't make the forum members start seeing each other as human beings, and we can't force them to be less sexist in real life. but i think we can create a better environment for us to coexist on.

If you don't want to accept this argument as valid, then fine, I'm sorry, but that doesn't change that the points I'm making explain the bulk of what you're complaining about. No one is going to just 'STOP' being mean to another person because you think they should. People who have no jobs, are still always going to resent immigrants.. people who have jobs but don't have union protection and thus are subject to deflationary labor surpluses.. are still going to hate Immigrants... people of one race who grew up with certain privileges or expectations who then find themselves not getting what they were promised(*) would be theirs.. are still going to hate people of that other race.. or look for another race to blame... especially if those races are getting part of what was promised. Guys, and Girls, who can't find healthy fulfilling relationships to exercise their biologically ingrained impulses are still going to get bitter and angry about it.. Does it make it right? No. Does it Excuse it? I think it explains it, but doesn't excuse it. But nothing either of us has written is going to do anything to change it. I think the key difference is, that a really lonely girl who's been told she's fat and ugly and worthless doesn't come on the internet to complain about it.. she just hates herself.. where as guys look for an external culprit to blame.

I'm sorry that you have to put up with this sort of thing.. but I don't think complaining about these guys attitudes is going to matter one bit because it doesn't change anything, and just gives them MORE reason to hate you and be bitter and angry. "See, theres another women who just doesn't understand or doesn't care.. just like all the rest"... It doesn't help that me writing a well worded, well thought out essay on problems in the dating world gets attacked by the same group of female posters in exactly the same way they attack a poster talking about cat calling a women in the parking lot of Wal-mart.. But I don't have any ideas as to how to fix it.. I'm not a "Fixer" I'm simply some one who can figure out how things connect.

*this is the key thing.. basically.. every single ounce of media from books to movies to music promises the guy a girl. the entirely of western culture going back to the middle ages has been promising the guy a girl if he just completes certain tasks... this also explains the reason we have the Atom Bomb and Space Travel and Kahlahari Bushmen don't. Sexually Frustrated guys get s**t done, and do it fast, because they've got the ultimate carrot on the end of the stick.

Last edited by rabbittss on 10 Feb 2013, 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

well, okay.... I see your point. However, one of the things I like about WP is that you don't get CLAMPED every time you post something thoughtless or stupid.

Most mods I've dealt with, do their thing with a light touch. I appreciate that.

Personally, I have a HUGE problem with authority and would never report anybody...

I am incredibly bothered by the influence David Wong's article has had on all of you. You guys are autistic. You guys know what it's like to have special interests. Surely you aren't in it for the sex? Surely you feel legitimate passion for the things you do? I think it's highly disingenuous to all males to state that their one driving force in life is to obtain 1x Female. >:/

The same can be said of the fairy tales promising the girl her prince if she behaves in a certain way. It's cultural spam that young people seem to eat up. Truth is, there are no princes and women aren't carrots. It shows a person's maturity when they realize this. I just wish that culturally we'd smarten up and stop selling these lies. (I know that's not going to happen - too much money to be made from people's fantasies.)

What are you talking about? What article? I'm a HISTORY Major.. with a minor in Cultural Anthropology... These are conclusions which are easy to reach

Yup, this is true.

But I don't think it has anything to do with Maturity.

Don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'll speculate that you're suggesting it has more to do with cultural reinforcement. (Please clarify if I've got this wrong.)
To this I would say that it is a sign of maturity to question what your culture tells you.

All right, I was mistaken then. There's an article that's been circulating around this forum for a while now that comes to the same conclusions you do, and I find its premise flawed, simply because there's more to being interested in/passionate about something than impressing women. I don't disagree that men feel they are entitled to get a woman at some point in their life, I just find it hard to believe that that's been the driving factor for essentially all scientific advancement. The subject is multi-faceted and imo, shouldn't be simplified so easily.

The whole thing is driven by basic biology which manifests itself in the culture...

As far as the whole maturity things goes... sure, some folks might be able to understand how things really are and why they aren't successful intellectually, but that's cold comfort for most.

Personally, I think these people need sex therapy.... but that would take a huge change in the culture. Sex is a basic biological need. Everybody needs a way to "get some" in a healthy, safe setting.

i don't think sex is a need, i think it is a desire. not everyone reproduces (not even in the animal kingdom), so although the drive is there, it will not always come to fruition. that is life. i think that teaching people to cope with that will go a lot farther than pandering to their sense of entitlement.

^^^ That's all absolutely true at a Darwinian level....

The guys we are taking about are losers at a Darwinian level, for sure.

The thing is, as humans we can operate at a level higher than that.

Sex therapy would not be pandering to a sense of entitlement for sex any more than treating a diabetic is pandering to their entitlement for insulin.

I really do believe sex is a basic ingredient for well being most of my psych books agree.

That's my take. I know most people would disagree, but I really think that has to do with western cultural hang-ups about sex....

PS

I do agree that they need therapy to help them understand and cope with the fact that they cannot couple in a natural way... And maybe even therapy to help them develop skills so they can...

I think that if western culture had a more reasonable attitude about sex, we would do this as a matter of course.

I also think it would go a long way toward eliminating misogyny.

Last edited by GoonSquad on 10 Feb 2013, 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

True . . . but I still don't get the hostility towards women. I may be frustrated that I don't have a boyfriend (which I actually am,) but I don't feel hostile towards men in general. My frustration with this is just another thing to bear. To me, men and women are just people/individuals, not targets for venting.

I don't think sex is a need, at least not for everyone. I haven't had sex since 1995 and don't want it or miss it and I know other people that haven't had sex in a long time and have no interest in it.