Today was... interesting. So is WP.

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Upbringing has to play some part, though yours sounds a lot different from mine so there's more going on. Still, some of those virtues you mentioned are interesting. My mom's side of the family is quite WASPy (so, Protestant work ethic), my dad's background is in Catholicism. I have been an atheist for many, many years and stopped practicing any religion years before that (as both of my parents have)... but the ideas of both good works and hard work remain and the things I do believe in reinforce the idea of these things; not because they are supposed to bring or indicate salvation but because they are right.

Hard work and self-reliance? I get that. Maybe too much at times; it took me a long time to learn that sometimes asking for help was the right decision. Still, I dislike getting special treatment. I'd rather adapt to others than ask they they adapt to me. Like you said... I will not be defined by a diagnosis. Some people here talk about it as a part of them. What they seem to mean by that describes a feeling I do not share and it sounds like it's the same for you.

I don't think you sound arrogant. That would be the people who seem to take every opportunity to proclaim their high IQ. You seem down to earth and humble about it, but if you're an intelligent person, you're an intelligent person. I am too. It's done me some good here and there. Now, I have certainly met people smarter than I am. I'm not a genius or anything. In time I realized it doesn't especially matter. Getting in someone's shoes is about understanding what they feel, not what they think. Emotions work on a whole different axis from intellect.

Some people on the spectrum are highly intelligent but may have more difficulty functioning, anyway. But it's sure to play a role in how each of us thinks about it.

My theory is that a person's values, ambitions and worldview have a lot to do with it.

I'm very people-oriented, outwardly focused, and philosophically I'm utilitarian to the point of being a bit collectivist. I have this "what can I do to help?" attitude. The things that interest me on a basic level and the things that make me feel good are often not the same. A lot of times, autism stands directly between me and the things that seem right and good. I want to help people, but have trouble connecting with them. I want to participate in big things, but have trouble maintaining the focus needed to do so.

I look at the world and say "others are suffering... this won't do!" Autism is counterproductive in actually doing something with that mentality.

My ambitions and goals do not match with my autistic symptoms. A lot of people have a special interest and look for things to do that relate to it. I have a myriad of obsessions that come and go rapidly and bring little to no pleasure while occupying time I could spend on things that actually matter to me. They're intellectual empty calories.

So, my "self" has developed in a way that is in conflict with what autism makes me inclined to do (isolate, focus on the self, follow a particular special interest).

Does any of this resonate with you, Looniverse?

Ok, so I'm replying to my own post. That's weird. Except that I'm really responding to Yigeren.

I took your advice and talked to my therapist today about why I feel this way. He's pretty astute and I can be pretty self-aware with someone to bounce ideas off of. Here's what we came up with:

1. It's a rejection on my part of some degree of "learned helplessness" I developed because my dad was always there and eager to go to bat for me if my autism caused any kind of issue. He did a lot to create a good environment for me. I respect and admire him for that and at the same time, I resent him for overdoing it. In trying to be more self-reliant I've become hostile to the idea of a simple difference to be accommodated and developed the attitude of "no, I'll handle this myself!"... sometimes to a fault.

I was, my therapist said; "given permission to form as I needed to". This allowed me to develop a perspective very different from most. Few people tried to make me act "NT". I chose it for myself, because as hard as it was I liked the results I got from doing so. Ultimately, I came to feel smothered by what came off to me as coddling and for a while I had the mentality that "yeah, I have Asperger's... so what!?" That's softened in recent years but the basis for that idea is still there and still unshakably strong.

2. As I mentioned, this struggle is part of my identity. For the most part, autism isn't. Autism isn't something I was thinking about when my identity formed; it wasn't something I ever had to put a ton of thought into if I did not want to. Because of the very early diagnosis there wasn't a period where I had to go "what does this mean?" and so it never became something I recognize as a part of my own identity. The struggles with it were real and frequent though, so those did. I usually didn't care about the cause, only solutions.

What I told him, and he thought sounded about right was that autism exists adjacent to my identity and exerts influence on it without actually being a part of it. It orbits it and exerts gravity upon it, so to speak.

3. I mentioned that autism is in conflict with my "soul". I don't believe in a literal soul, but I was referring to my sense of self and what I feel. The things that I recognize as being central to me. I need to connect with, understand and interact with others. I value the ideas of others. I have to be able to work with a variety of ideas and situations in a fluid and effective manner. Autism is an impediment to these needs. I think a lot of people with autism will adapt their desires, values and worldviews to it. I have staunchly refused to do so, and since doing so would be very much be like selling my metaphorical soul to the metaphorical devil I'd consider it tantamount to death. The person I am could easily exist without autism if that were possible. He could not exist without the parts of me that it creates difficulties for.

I'm going to have to think on this for a while, but these seem like interesting ideas about it.

It's not that bad. My experience seems to have been the opposite of yours. While you were diagnosed as a child and had the support of your father, I was diagnosed at 38 and never received any support up until that time.

But I think you may be making a false dichotomy between those who accept their autism and those who fight it. I do a bit of both. More of the former lately as previous to my diagnosis I did everything I could to hide my differences and conform. The resultant breakdown led me to a psychiatrist experienced with autism. My diagnosis gives me freedom to get to know the "me" who has been suppressed all these years. I don't feel the need to celebrate my autism (although I do identify as autistic and I know I have strengths that others don't,) but I don't fight it either.

For me it's about achieving a balance between pushing my boundaries and being okay with myself and my autism.

What you say about your experiences actually gives some credence to some of the ideas mentioned above; the early diagnosis and supportive environment probably did make a huge difference. Thank you for that insight.

As for my attitudes, it's just like I said; for myself, the autism isn't "a part of me" in that it's not really incorporated into my identity. So I can dislike it without disliking myself. I can certainly see a broad variety of approaches people have towards their autism ranging from arrogant pride to outright denial. I certainly don't meet either extreme but I've observed a gap in that field where I fall and where I don't see any other people. That's pretty lonely sometimes.

I accept that I have Asperger's/ASD and I'll even grant that there are some things about it that could be kind of cool. It's just that those things don't really mean anything to me and don't do much for me. So what I'm left with are things that screw me up. I spend a lot of time trying to find ways to control or suppress them or to work around them so they don't matter either.

So there is "acceptance" of it in a way, but it's more like the way an amputee would accept that their limb is gone. That can't be changed, but there are things to be done about it. I think that's a good analogy, because it honestly feels more like a part of me is missing than it feels like some kind of cancer; the metaphor that's been used in this thread before.

Each of us has an individual path to follow. Generalizations are fine for shorthand, but in reality are not applicable. So in that sense, each of us is alone.

The only thing that concerns me about your thread is that you see your autism as "other." And, like you say, you are battling your symptoms. All of us battle our symptoms, even those who embrace them. One can't help but do so, I think, when surrounded by an unaccepting world.

Does your battle not take a lot out of you? Back when I was fighting it I felt like I was fighting my own nature. And it led to self-hatred. I hope this doesn't happen to you.

You have said a couple of times how much you value and care about other people:

Although autism makes socialization difficult, this is not the same thing as saying autistic people don't care about others. So if you blame your autism for hindering your social interactions, that's cool. But if you think that autism makes people not care about others, I think you are wrong.

It's never really led to self-hatred. Other things have before, but I don't blame those on autism. I blame them on some poor choices I have made. Yeah, fighting it can take a lot out of me at times; but in the end I feel better for it. When I succeed I feel amazing, when I am less than successful I feel ok because at least I tried and gained some understanding from it. I have had a lot of successes. Forcing myself to be more social for instance was extremely stressful at first but like exercising a muscle, I got stronger at it in time and it became far easier. It's paid dividends and changed my personality from what it used to be, and I like the change.

Now, while we do each have our own path it's nice to find people who walk a similar one. In this regard I've had trouble.

Also... I do note a lot of talk about the acceptance of others. I get why that's important and I think it would be great if autistic people could be better understood and accepted. It just doesn't resonate with me personally. I am of the belief that autism would be troubling and cause hardships even in an accepting world. Acceptance is not a panacea. That's just my opinion, though.



Oh I know. I think a lot of autistic people care (in my case, I care a lot), but have trouble understanding. I have this deep need for understanding, so it's kind of a raw deal for me. Them's the breaks.

What I'm referring to when I talk about a "gap" is the difficulty in creating an emotional/intuitive connection with others, which is something "NT" people do naturally (I'm very interested in what neurologists find out about mirror neurons in autistic people as research continues; nothing conclusive yet). My extreme difficulty in doing so is deeply upsetting to me. Even if I care, this "gap" makes it harder to do something with that and much easier to get on the "same wavelength" as another person.

It's the thing that makes it so I often feel alone even when I'm in a crowd. Anyone can get that, I just get it a lot. It's hard to explain.

I kind of like some of my autistic traits. I'm not sure I would like myself as much if I didn't have them.
What kind of person would I be without them?

I think for myself.
I'm honest, as much as possible.
I don't put on a social mask like others do, unless I absolutely have to.
I learn for the sake of learning. I have many interests, which are not shallow or materialistic.
I help others because I want to, not just to make myself look good.
I notice details others do not.
I think logically.
I have the capability to intensely focus on tasks.
I have a youthful attitude.

I like those qualities about myself. There are things I have to overcome as well. But without those qualities, I wouldn't be me. I really don't think autism is bad. It just means that we have to work harder at some things than others do.

Who would you be without your autism? If you were to meet a version of yourself without it, would you even like yourself?

It's academic, since I'll never be that person. I do like the idea of that person, I suppose. If you want me to answer in more detail I can, but it's a bit upsetting for me to think about.

It's great that you feel this way and it seems to work for you. It just doesn't seem to work for me. In part because a lot of these sorts of traits fall into three categories for me:

1. Stuff I am not in a position to take advantage of.
2. Stuff I don't care about.
3. Stuff that creates problems for me.

Doesn't exactly make me have warm feelings towards my autism when that's what it brings to the table. If I deal with 3 though, 1 is suddenly put in a better light. That's the way I think about this. It's very pragmatic. For a more emotional approach, I just wish I had people in the same boat and who I could talk to about it.

[redacted-do not argue with the OP in a haven thread, please.]

Last edited by Adamantium on 17 Jan 2016, 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.: Offensive content

Of course I'm angry, because you're either ignoring or deliberately misunderstanding everything I say and trying to twist it to be what you'd like, and now you're following me around to do it. Have you read a single f*****g word I've said, ever? Are you just here to stroke your ego and try and make people feel like s**t?

Maybe I didn't make this clear, so I'll be as succinct as possible; if you're going to twist everything I say to make me the bad guy? f**k off.