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Tips on reaching the proper mood for suicide?

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Ann2011
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10 Feb 2012, 6:52 pm

I don't call self-harmers selfish. Although if someone loves you, they will be hurt by your self destruction. But to use other people in your self-destruction (for example, stepping in front of a car,) is selfish.

Like I said in another thread, once there is no one left who will be hurt by your actions, I think it is okay to kill yourself.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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10 Feb 2012, 6:55 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
I don't call self-harmers selfish. Although if someone loves you, they will be hurt by your self destruction. But to use other people in your self-destruction (for example, stepping in front of a car,) is selfish.

Like I said in another thread, once there is no one left who will be hurt by your actions, I think it is okay to kill yourself.


Certainly stepping into traffic is selfish, but just because there are people that would be hurt by your death doesn't mean suicide is inherently selfish.


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techstepgenr8tion
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10 Feb 2012, 6:56 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
Themselves.

That's pretending that they were just having an 'emo' moment and everything would have been okay if they wouldn't have followed through. Not too imaginative against the scope of human experience and both the heights and depths not only of what that can be but what it can even be permanently.

My honest opinion - its a mixed bag. A permanent solution to a temporary problem is a terrible choice. However, a person whose learned about as much as the can about themselves and the world around them and knows that the longer they live the more of a black hole they'll become from what life will never stop stacking on them - if they do the math and they're better off essentially in nonexistance, who's to judge that?

By taking fixed stances people turn this into the abortion issue and start removing all the different age and motivational distinctions in this. On one hand a kid eats a bottle of tylenol over bad SAT scores, on another you have a middle aged widow or widower diagnosed with last terminal illness who realizes that their inheritance will be sucked by doctors if they don't. VERY different content.

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Certainly stepping into traffic is selfish, but just because there are people that would be hurt by your death doesn't mean suicide is inherently selfish.

Agreed. Love is a two-way street. If someone is in anguish that will only end when they chose it to by their own means - you start heading into territory where, essentially, its selfish of loved ones to need them to simply keep living for the opportunity cost that they'd miss them otherwise.


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Ann2011
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10 Feb 2012, 7:17 pm

Point taken. I don't think attempting/committing suicide is selfish; I've been there and I know that at that point you're only thinking about the pain. My contrariness comes in at the point where you use other people to hurt yourself. I think this is unnecessary and unfair.



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10 Feb 2012, 7:26 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
Point taken. I don't think attempting/committing suicide is selfish; I've been there and I know that at that point you're only thinking about the pain. My contrariness comes in at the point where you use other people to hurt yourself. I think this is unnecessary and unfair.


Even this is subjective. What of the invalid on their deathbed that doesn't have the ability to carry it out themselves? Are they selfish?


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Ann2011
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10 Feb 2012, 7:32 pm

If the invalid wants it, then the person who loves you should help you to die.



Ann2011
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10 Feb 2012, 7:37 pm

The invalid is not selfish. I think I sound contradictory. Ultimately, we have to do what is right for ourselves. But I don't want to forget people who care about me.



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11 Feb 2012, 12:26 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
The_Perfect_Storm wrote:
front wrote:
And dont screw others by it (not in public, no trains etc)
I guess, but why should ethics matter at that point... do what you feel is right for you. It's your death.
Ethics matter even after we're gone. Good and evil continue without us. I think this is a very selfish perspective.

Ethics do not matter to the Dead, only to the Living. Same for morality and the law. As for being selfish, suicide is the most selfish action one can undertake.
Who do they owe so much to?

Who said anything about "owing" or obligation?

People who commit suicide are obviously thinking only of themselves. If they think of others at all, it seem to be along the lines of "They'll be sorry", based on the notes they've left behind (the ones I've read, at least).



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11 Feb 2012, 12:42 pm

Fnord wrote:
Who said anything about "owing" or obligation?

People who commit suicide are obviously thinking only of themselves. If they think of others at all, it seem to be along the lines of "They'll be sorry", based on the notes they've left behind (the ones I've read, at least).


Some are like that, yes, but not everyone that commits suicide thinks this way.


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11 Feb 2012, 12:58 pm

Fnord wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
The_Perfect_Storm wrote:
front wrote:
And dont screw others by it (not in public, no trains etc)
I guess, but why should ethics matter at that point... do what you feel is right for you. It's your death.
Ethics matter even after we're gone. Good and evil continue without us. I think this is a very selfish perspective.

Ethics do not matter to the Dead, only to the Living. Same for morality and the law. As for being selfish, suicide is the most selfish action one can undertake.
Who do they owe so much to?

Who said anything about "owing" or obligation?

People who commit suicide are obviously thinking only of themselves. If they think of others at all, it seem to be along the lines of "They'll be sorry", based on the notes they've left behind (the ones I've read, at least).


I actually have to disagree considering I know from first hand experiance the thought 'everyone else would be better off if I were dead.' can exist.......and that is usually something I always end up considering when I feel suicidal. So don't pretend like you know what goes on in the head of every single person who attempts or succeeds at suicide. Not to mention it was never about 'they'll be sorry.' it was about 'I'm such a useless f*ck and am in so much pain I might as well just do it.......too bad they will be sad but hopefully they will move on and live better lives then I was living.' Maybe some people are more inclined to hope it works as revenge, but even so there is probably mental illness contributing to the suicidal mindset so I would not say someone feeling that way deserves help any less then say someone who was more feeling how I felt.


Also like I've said before i know you believe you have the right to offend who ever you want whenever you want, but keep in mind in The Haven there are quite a few people who struggle with feeling suicidal and who have even attempted suicide. So maybe the Haven is not the best place for blanket statements about how everyone who commits/attempts suicide is just some selfish a**hole who wants to really get their friends and family good by offing them self. But I don't wanna impede on your right to offend or anything.


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 11 Feb 2012, 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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11 Feb 2012, 12:59 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Who said anything about "owing" or obligation?

People who commit suicide are obviously thinking only of themselves. If they think of others at all, it seem to be along the lines of "They'll be sorry", based on the notes they've left behind (the ones I've read, at least).


Some are like that, yes, but not everyone that commits suicide thinks this way.


ahh never mind, I agree with your statement though.


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 11 Feb 2012, 1:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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11 Feb 2012, 1:02 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Who said anything about "owing" or obligation? People who commit suicide are obviously thinking only of themselves. If they think of others at all, it seem to be along the lines of "They'll be sorry", based on the notes they've left behind (the ones I've read, at least).
Some are like that, yes, but not everyone that commits suicide thinks this way.

Okay, then ... according to This Article in Psychology Today, there are six reasons for suicide:

1. They're depressed (They've exaggerated the difficulty of getting relief to the point of futility).

2. They're psychotic (This is the only case where the person is inherently incapable of thinking rationally).

3. They're impulsive (Usually chemically induced; they get drunk or stoned and kill themselves on impulse).

4. They're crying out for help, and don't know how else to get it (They don't know how to get help without a display of overly-dramatic behavior).

5. They have a philosophical desire to die. (They think that it is the "only way out" from their misery).

6. They've made a mistake. (Their suicides are accidental).

So, people who commit suicide: (1) exaggerate their suffering; (2) are insane; (3) are drunk or stoned; (4) use the drama of a suicide threat to get attention; (5) they want to escape; or (6) they're too stupid to realize that what they're doing could kill them.



Last edited by Fnord on 11 Feb 2012, 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TeaEarlGreyHot
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11 Feb 2012, 1:04 pm

What does that have to do with a suicide victim only thinking of others in the manner that you stated?


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Fnord
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11 Feb 2012, 1:08 pm

TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
What does that have to do with a suicide victim only thinking of others in the manner that you stated?

Look over each of the categories. Only psychosis removes the individual from the responsibility for committing suicide. Every other category is related to the person's self-centeredness in some way.

Narcissism or Psychosis: Take your pick.



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11 Feb 2012, 1:10 pm

Fnord wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
What does that have to do with a suicide victim only thinking of others in the manner that you stated?

Look over each of the categories. Only psychosis removes the individual from the responsibility for committing suicide. Every other category is related to the person's self-centeredness in some way.

Narcissism or Psychosis: Take your pick.


I got that. I still don't understand where you got the "I'll show them" comment.


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Sweetleaf
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11 Feb 2012, 1:12 pm

Fnord wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Who said anything about "owing" or obligation? People who commit suicide are obviously thinking only of themselves. If they think of others at all, it seem to be along the lines of "They'll be sorry", based on the notes they've left behind (the ones I've read, at least).
Some are like that, yes, but not everyone that commits suicide thinks this way.

Okay, then ... according to This Article in Psychology Today, there are six reasons for suicide:

1. They're depressed (They've exaggerated the difficulty of getting relief to the point of futility).

2. They're psychotic (This is the only case where the person is inherently incapable of thinking rationally).

3. They're impulsive (Usually chemically induced; they get drunk or stoned and kill themselves on impulse).

4. They're crying out for help, and don't know how else to get it (They don't know how to get help without a display of overly-dramatic behavior).

5. They have a philosophical desire to die. (They think that it is the "only way out" from their misery).

6. They've made a mistake. (Their suicides are accidental).

So, people who commit suicide: (1) exaggerate their suffering; (2) are insane; (3) are drunk or stoned; (4) use the drama of a suicide threat to get attention; (5) they want to escape; or (6) they're too stupid to realize that what they're doing could kill them.


Or maybe they are in freaking pain and can't freaking handle it anymore...........and don't know how else to make it end. Seriously are you getting some sort of enjoyment out of making horribly judgmental assumptions about people who struggle with feeling suicidal and sometimes succeed at it? All it's going to do is make people feel even worse and that's not what The Haven is supposed to be for. So why don't you take it to the politics forum or something instead of trying to trigger people in The Haven.


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