The "Getting Nasty" Thing

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So once someone has gotten nasty to me, I really can't be around them. I was thinking it was something wrong with me, that I ruminate too much, all that stuff. That's part of it. But the thing is that once someone demonstrates that they're likely to take what I say, twist it, and get all nasty, they're going to keep doing it. Maybe NTs can see when that point is approaching, but I really can't; if I give someone another chance, the same thing is almost certain to happen again, because really, it's not like either of us has totally changed. So while an NT can make up with someone and then just be a bit guarded whenever they talk to that person in the future, that's nearly impossible for me to do, it involves seeing how the other person is responding to things.
Maybe it's just the bad experiences in my past, but I think it's more than that. Like, if I just let something go, I WILL end up letting my guard down again and get shot down again when I try to talk about something. If someone was nasty to me before over a misunderstanding, I can't just establish that and move on. I've tried. But if someone has the tendency to get misunderstand (and/or just plain twist words) and then get nasty, they don't just do it once. They do it repeatedly. (I don't mean just the misunderstanding part, that's no big deal like if someone is like "did I understand that right?" or asks for clarification, but if someone misunderstands and then gets mean over it.)
This is another example of why therapy isn't so good for me-- a therapist would say it's something that needs to be gotten past, that I overreact and that that's unhealthy. But it's not altogether unhealthy. It's unhealthy in how much it bothers me, but adaptive in that if I suck at reading people then I really should avoid people who are likely do get like that.
Does that make sense? (Ugh, I have this horrible habit of always asking that!)


(Erm, for people who check posts from the main page, lemmie mention that this is a Haven topic.. Feeling fragile, right now I'm looking more for thoughts and support than open debate, I was gonna put it in the General form but I changed my mind.)

Maggie, I do understand what you're talking about. My AS friendship has pretty much ended now, and he blames it mostly on our failure to communicate - or rather he blames me.

I've tried so hard - I swear I have. I've felt like a pretzel this past year, putting myself in knots, trying to sort through simple conversations. Our relationship has been long distance, so we've mainly had contact through texts, emails and chatting on Skype, which means he hasn't even had the tone of my voice or my facial expressions to go on.

But the jist of it is, each misunderstanding put a brick in an imaginary wall for him. The disagreements didn't even have to be nasty, although he was constantly accusing me of just that. Basically, I wasn't allowed to have an opinion. I wasn't allowed to disagree with him without it becoming a problem. And I'm not talking about dramatic confrontations, just differences in the way we saw life. If he said the sky was blue and I said it was grey, then I was accused of being a typical, difficult woman.

He went off on a tangent a week or so ago and wrote this to me:

Enough. I've thought about it, and it's too much.

You complain too much. You suspect too much. You misunderstand too much. It's almost like you WANT to misunderstand. Now you're going on about the f*****g Facebook friends again. I think you have an idea about men as the bastards, and there will only ever be hell to pay for men. I think, in short, you need to get yourself sorted out. You're too jealous. You're way too insistent about getting your feelings acknowledged. It's almost always down to getting your feelings acknowledged and my failure to do so. We haven't even met and I'm always in s**t with you. You deny everything I say. You're as stubborn as anyone I've ever met. You always come back to the same stuff that "scares, hurts, upsets" or otherwise pains you. Christ Almighty, enough!

So, there was always a double standard at work. He was allowed to have mood swings, he was allowed to vent at me, he was allowed to misunderstand, he was allowed to be hurt or embarrassed or feel shame about his behavior, but I wasn't given any of those freedoms. I always ended up feeling like being human wasn't an option.

And as he stated yesterday, our last misunderstanding was 'once too many'.

I don't know if this is an AS trait, but the thing that's hard for me is that I was rarely given the benefit of the doubt. He automatically assumed the worst about what I had to say, and the majority of the time, he's been wrong about my intentions - but I usually ended up apologizing anyway. The last two months, I've been begging him to work through the discomfort and not to run away, but things between us just got worse and worse.

I don't know how it is for aspies, but for me personally, I try very hard to work through problems - no matter how many there are. It is very draining and takes a lot of effort. And, like you mentioned, I do let my guard down again and again, and I do get repeatedly hurt. I think that's just normal for NT and AS alike.

First, sorry to hear about your difficulty, Maggie. I understand you perfectly. Just this weekend my ex wife started an argument (she says I was rude "first" - that is important to her, who did it first), unfortunately I have to endure her since we have a daughter...

Both posts stroke me a direct hit.

That sounds a lot like me... and



Really describes my way of thinking (we can talk all you want, as long as we try to come to a conclusion) and my ex wife (gets mean over it).

I am speaking specificaly about my ex wife, I am NOT putting NTs in the bag.

It seems that some people have the need to strike you back as a form of defense. If they misunderstand you, or think your point of view is aggressive, they will start saying all types of crazy things just to get you hurt and themselves feeling better afterwards.



I heard that from her also... but... this may sound offensive... what she never understood is that: I wasn't venting, I was telling the truth... While she said horrible things that later she said "I didn't mean that", I never got the guts to say "well, I DID". But I really did... and I am not implying this is studentM's case.

So, what I do know is that I am going to avoid this kind of person. The only thing that kept me going for about 4.5 years was my daughter. If it wasn't for her, I would have quit much sooner. I had other relationships where none of that hapenned, so I don't think it's an NT thing. And I agree, once people start doing this to you, they will keep doing.

So, in the end, what I have to say is: Maggie, don't feel bad about it, this kind of people don't deserve your attention. If it is a coworker, just be professional and don't give them any opening. If it is personal... well... "ex wife" says what I think.

Maggie and studentM, I've had similar experiences too. Some people attempt to blame communication failures on others, and never consider that they themselves are at least partially to blame. And some people just want to be right all the time.

According to a NT friend of mine, everyone has at least a double standard. Or, as a psychiatrist I know says: each of us has our internal standard and then a wide variety of external standards used with various people and under differing circumstances.

That is far too complex for me. I require structure and systemization, plus consistency. So I ignore or avoid people who can't handle me. I've ended several friendships and cut off communication with some family members because of these issues. This may sound harsh, but it's a simple system that has increased my sense of calm and control in my world.

I never understood the idea of "forgive and forget". Why would I want to forget that someone was consistently condescending, conceited, or cruel toward me? That is useful information. People tend to do the same things again and again; basic personality traits are stable over time. So I forgive in the sense that I no longer have particular emotions attached to an event, but I do not forget.

I give all my friends the benefit of the doubt, and they return the favor. Friendship is a give-and-take process, a mutually beneficial undertaking, a sharing and supportive act. I only have a few friends, but I feel very fortunate that they are great people.

Quality friends are hard for me to find, so when I find one, I do my best to maintain the friendship. If it's not working, then I move on. From what you two have said, you're both in situations that I've been through too. Moving on is difficult. But if a friendship is causing that much pain, it's the best alternative.

I think that I understand what you mean. I don't think that there's anything wrong with thinking this way, unless you seem to notice that the same issue seems to come up in almost every relationship that you have. It's about instinct. NTs read other people, as well as understand their own feelings, most of the time. If someone does something that's hurtful, they can usually quickly figure out what happened, and how they feel about it. For me, I just get left with a vague feeling that something is wrong, but often am unable to put my finger on what that it is. If someone did, or said something that hurt my feelings it can take me a little while to figure out what happened. It's also easy for the person that upset me in the first place to convince me that my perception is wrong, even if it's not. Basically, by the time that I've figured the whole situation out using logic, I've already been hurt several times by the person. I've been learning to listen to that vague nagging feeling that I get when I know something isn't quite right. Even if I can't put it into words, the feeling that something is wrong, and that I'm being treated badly by someone else is usually right. If you're instinct is telling you that someone around you is mistreating you, then I think it's best to listen to it, and stay away from that person.

Hurt me once, shame on you

Hurt me twice, shame on me

Most don't get a second chance

Mental Health professionals call it, Toxic Shame

However, I call it an educational experience of applied science.

Precisely...ironically, this last week has been NIGHTMARISH for me because of just this very reason. Ironically, I (sort-of) like the one who does this BUT she simply cannot resist the urge to give me her 'special advice' which (1) does not apply - she doesn't know me or my background, just bits & pieces at m,ost. (2) that Neurotypical self-righteous attitude. And Lab Pet is gullible (? right word) enough to take it...but I cannot any longer.

They absolutely must back-off. When 'they' insert their meaning, give their advice based upon their own supposition, this only does DAMAGE! I've been hurt (by events outside of my control - such as no parents, etc) but I am pursuing a PhD (already have masters, research) at University. I'm extraordinarily busy and academics are my 1st priority - to LEARN. Not waste my time with their mind games.

serenity: Yes, precisely.....when one 'knows' something is awry, then it is. That's why they need to stop. And if that means removing oneself from that situation/person, then yes! We should not need to explain, explain, explain, to 'them' why it hurts - Aspies have boundaries.

So sorry Maggiedoll, seems as if you've been hurt too. My observation is that 'they' oftentimes will then instigate the SHAMING technique - 'they' often DO have ulterior motives and Aspies are vulnerable....sorry you've been hurt. You know what? This is bullying. And you're right to just step-away. I do know those ASD are just not equipped with 'outer shell.'

I'll need to keep my distance from this female. Although she may not be aware she's doing this, it's manipulative. Just hurts - no words to say how much it hurts.

yeah but the aspie version is Hurt me 12 times and I still struggle to learn from it.

I have similar problems to the OP, people can mistreat me and I sort of 'forget', my social memory is poor. I don't really have a sense of self in an ongoing historical identity sense, I think I live in the present. It's a bit 'doglike'- you know how people can mistreat a dog and yet the animal will stiill be loyal and trusting (well in many cases - I'm not referring to outright or severe cruelty to animals) I think I also have put up with poor treatment from people because of fewer choices in who to associate with.

But is she speaking to you in a malicious way? Or is she just being 'overly-helpful' and so you find her annoying?



Have you ever had discussions with this woman where you've tried to explain your meaning to her? This is a serious question - I'm not poking at you. How is she to know she's doing damage if you never say anything?

I'm an American. But when I travel to other parts of the world, I make an effort to learn the language and culture of others. Unfortunately, I don't have a guidebook for learning about AS - how I wish I did! The only way I can step outside of myself and understand your point of view is if you communicate with me. If you keep all your thoughts and feelings inside you, how are my suppositions to change? If I'm to grasp even a little of what's going on in your head by mere observation, then I'll be left to guess my way through.



Yes, my guy would say this quite often - that he had been hurt. And, like you, he works very hard and is often busy.



Being myself with you is not a mind game. It's all I know.



I respectfully disagree. I think all people are capable of misinterpreting the reality around them, and a lot of that has to do with filtering information through a lifetime of experience. Your experiences have been painful, and that seems to greatly influence how you interpret the world.



Then you are guilty of the same self-righteous and pridefulness you accuse NTs of. If you're unwilling to help us understand, then you are part of the problem.



LabPet, I'm on this forum to learn from you. I have no desire to shame or bully anyone, and my motive is to understand the AS perspective so that I can communicate effectively with the AS individual in my life. That is my goal. I would appreciate any and all insight from you so that, perhaps, loosing someone dear to me doesn't have to be my only option.

In my experience there are three distinct groups of people: those who understand what I'm saying, those who understand what I'm saying IF I express it particularly clearly, and those who are going to twist whatever I say. Well, they're not quite distinct groups, it's a continuum; there are the people who almost always understand, the people who almost always twist words, and then a spectrum in between. The people who ask for clarification before figuring they know what I meant can fall at lots of different points on that continuum. How articulate I feel at any given time has a great deal to do with which side of that continuum I've been dealing with recently. Kris pretty much always knows what I mean, and he's pretty aspie-like anyways, so he takes stuff at face value and doesn't twist it around.



I'm pretty sure I know what you mean. I know the words I'd use to describe it in myself, but they all have negative connotations, so I won't suggest them.



Ok, the thing is, how does someone with no ability to talk about meaningless things "be professional"? If I have something to say, than someone is going to have an opening.



Exactly.. if it happens, it's going to continue. Even if someone says they will, they're NOT going to suddenly stop interpreting things however they want, not going to see things differently, not going to stop seeing things between the lines that don't actually exist. If they say "oh, I see that was a misunderstanding" that means that they see it for this past time and may have forgiven you for that.. it doesn't mean that they're going to quit with the word-twisting in the future. Next time the same thing happens, they're likely to forget the whole explanation of what things mean to you. If someone gets offended that you share a piece of information with them because they have this assumption that the only reason to share information is to imply that the other person is stupid (HUH?!?!) then they're just NOT a good person to continue to interact with. They may say "oh, I see, you didn't imply that I was stupid by telling me something, you implied that I was smart and worth having a conversation with," but the next time you try to share some interesting piece of information with them, they'll go into the same "OMG, you found an interesting fact and repeated it to me, that must mean you think I'm stupid!" crap all over again. Maybe there are people that people who do that can get along with; I'm not one of them!




I think that when an NT does that, they don't actually forget-- they're more guarded with their conversation in the future, make small talk instead of talking about something that would give the person an opening, carefully observe the person's nonverbal communication to make sure they're not getting upset by things they're saying.. in essence, they do more of all the stuff that aspies can't do in the first place. Which is why we have to be pickier about who we associate with than NTs do, because we can't pick through the interactions in the ways that they do.



Usually aspies take things at face value and there's not much interpreting going on at all. I don't know what's going on between you and this guy, especially given that you said that this is all an online interaction anyways, so there should be too much in the way of nonverbal communication for him to be missing. All the stuff you're saying seems to be kinda the opposite of the point I was trying to make. I don't want to try to judge who it is that's doing more of the misunderstanding between you and him; I don't know either of you, I don't know if he's right or if you're right or if you're both wrong.

Exactly. I'm trying to offer the NT perspective of what you're describing. And I could be completely wrong - maybe there are those in your life who are indeed being very nasty and vicious and evil. BUT, could it simply be miscommunication on both sides with no malicious intent from either party? Couldn't that explain at least part of it?

I see myself as putting forth genuine, honest effort with this man. Yet it doesn't matter if the communication is positive or negative, I'm found to be lacking. The quote I shared was more on the negative side, but he's equally displeased with me for being too accommodating, too nice, too polite, too generous, too affectionate, etc. I'm none of these in the extreme, yet they are indeed facets of being an NT. They're all actions and emotions that I try to communicate to him. I do get jealous, but I'm not too jealous, I am generous, but I'm not too generous. Does that make sense?

So, from your original post, what I'm trying to say - as an NT - is that my words are taken and consistently being twisted by him and he gets nasty, and he keeps doing it. You and I are struggling with same problem, but from completely different mindsets.



There is nothing to judge. I believe he's AS, and I'm NT. It's not a matter of right and wrong. We think differently and I accept that.

What I'm attempting to do through participating on this forum is to learn all I can about those differences in an effort in find a way to have productive, non-offensive conversations and, if possible, maintain a relationship that's satisfying for both of us.

studentM: That is a good question(s) so I shall try to answer.

Lab Pet is female (my video, URL below, is in sig line); the one who spoke to me IS trying to be helpful (?) but just doesn't know who/what I am. Her advice can be not applicable, even hurtful. For me, I am slow to process verbal speech that is of an emotional nature most especially! There is such a thing termed an "Aspie pause".....more like an Aspie hiatus!

Often times I cannot feel the hurt until after processing. By analogy, this might be like if one had minor surgery. That area is numb with anesthetic, maybe just a dull ache - sense something is awry (& yes, ASD individuals are aware when it's 'just not right'). Then, LATER, it wakes up - pain!!

I think one major component is that Autists do separate thought from emotion - two separate processes entirely. I am an extraordinarily logical being and just cannot comprehend why another is not. The connundrum: Given NT will invariably insert their meaning where it does not exist. So, for me, NTs can be like slot machines. Just follow not discernable pattern and Lab Pet is a pattern, sequence, image thinker. That's the difference.

I do know this: Autists virtually don't do what is termed declarative speech. Often we'll merely recite or monologue, whether verbal or writting. Maybe you have noticed on Wrong Planet that we do not express in the same way. For ex: I'm sure you've heard that 'back & forth' exchange of social chat, such as at a cafe, yes? I virtually cannot begin to know what they're saying. However, in another realm (ie: math, science, etc - I'm also artistic! draw/paint) then the words aren't so emotive and therefore safer (right word?). I lack words for emotions too and have few and rudimentary emotions - Lab Pet has 4 emotions in sum total but I do feel. For ex: I lack the emotion jealousy. I learned what 'jealous' meant only vicariously, such as by reading classical literature, but I do not possess that emotion.

Then, I can often mix-up my pronounse (I, you, them). You may have noticed (not sure?) that many Autist do refer to themselves in 3rd person. One whom is very special to us (& my friend!), KingdomOfRats, only uses "am self," not "I." I have learned to use "I" as a construct but unsure if this sense is within me.

Yes, verbal language moves quicly and their words can be harsh. With their emotions overlayed that I cannot read! Lab Pet is blind to those emotions so they are as if speaking another language. I think my video explains best...also, I am (partly) mute. This means my writing is the meaning. I mean what I write, write I mean - nothing more & nothing less.

I hope I explained all right and good to have another perspective. Also, truly don't mean to offend if I write "Neurotypical." The term is neutral; merely descriptive. Just as "my friend, Sally, is right handed whilst Jasone is left handed." I do have many NTs I like/love/respect - very much! I wouldn't want to seem as if that's a division; but do note that distinction.

I just got out of a situation similar to yours Maggiedoll. The funny thing is that people like this actually consider themselves friends. I never keep tabs on people I consider myself close to , I always feel that I wouldn't be a friend if I did such a thing. Some people won't forgive what you do no matter how much you forgive them. I ended a friendship last month and I had to face the guilt gauntlet, even as I was being forced to move out of the house I was in, Kevin tried to start up some friendly banter, I'm forced to wonder if he was doing it to get more money from me or what, but this is one thing we can all agree on.

I'm glad we have a haven for this, there aren't many places that'll understand the trust issues we go through. But I can see that my story is pretty much in line with anyone else's. I think a question we'd all like to ask is if we're the one's who don't know any better, then how can they blame us for trusting them in the first place?

StudentM, are you really quite sure that AS is what's wrong with this guy? Usually when someone with AS misunderstands something, it's a matter of taking it at face value when it was supposed to be interpreted. The whole figuring-out-hidden-meanings thing is pretty foreign, so while it happens when someone has learned that they're SUPPOSED to interpret what NTs say, it's unlikely to happen multiple times with the same person. I might misinterpret what someone says once because I know NTs work hidden meanings into something, but once I find out that that person is straightforward and says what they mean, I'm not going to do it again. I'm far more comfortable not trying to work out twelve zillion layers to everything. If I find out that someone is actually saying what they mean, I count my lucky stars and feel much better about that person! Not to mention that a lot of what aspies miss socially is the nonverbal cues that we don't have to worry about online anyways-- it's way easier to communicate online. They guy you're talking about really sounds more borderline than aspie. I really don't know, 'cause I don't know him, and I also don't know what goes on with the both of you... but the twisting and the switching back and fourth.. that's a borderline thing, not an aspie thing. Borderlines and aspies can look very similar at first glance, and I think male borderlines may get diagnosed aspie just like a lot of female aspies get diagnosed borderline because of the gender prejudices and the superficial similarities. A lot of times they act the same ways, except for the exact opposite reasons. Obviously I don't know for sure.. what you described just doesn't sound like it's the aspie type of misunderstanding, unless maybe he's reacting to things that you've misunderstood. Obviously I can't be sure.. but that was just my thought.
I'm most comfortable with people who are straightforward and say what they mean, then I just don't have to worry. Even if they get angry or get annoyed and yell at me occasionally, if I know that they say exactly what they mean, I don't have to worry about them secretly getting upset, getting passive-aggressive, don't have to try to read into what they're saying and find out if they're getting upset with me... because I know that if they were, they'd flippin' make it clear, so sometimes when I've seen someone get upset, it eliminates twelve layers of worry, because then I know what upset looks like in that person.
Aspies do not like hidden messages. For this reason, aspies tend not to look for hidden messages unless there is really good reason to think that they're there. If you tell an aspie that there is no hidden message to something, they'll almost certainly be massively relieved, and will absolutely not be looking for one. Of course, if there subsequently IS a hidden message that they missed because you told them not to look for any, don't expect that person to talk to you again. That's a betrayal of epic proportions.

It not so much that it's a situation I'm in as something that is just a fact that I know but feel guilty about. I was briefly seeing a therapist who didn't understand me very well, and she'd make it seem like there was something wrong with me for not being able to deal with certain things, and want to avoid certain people and certain types of people, as though it's just an emotional issue that I should be able to work out, but it's more than that. Avoiding certain situations that you're just not good at dealing with isn't an unhealthy thing. Putting myself into situations where I have to deal with people who are going to twist my words and get nasty is just a really stupid idea for me, and no amount of therapy is going to change that. Of course, I guess if I develop more issues from dealing with such people, it would give therapists more business.. No magical therapy breakthrough is ever going to make me able to function like an NT, though, and being in therapy with a therapist who thinks it should is going to do nothing but waste money and get me blamed when the wrong therapy doesn't work.

I hope that you can let yourself off of the hook, and not feel guilty for simply protecting yourself, and setting healthy boundaries. If at any time a person (AS or NT) is in a situation to where they have to censor everything that comes out of their mouth so that someone else doesn't misinterpret the meaning by twisting their words around, then it's an unhealthy relationship. This is something that I've realized lately. I have a right to simply just be without having to apologize constantly for how I communicate, or rather how someone else interprets my communication. It's one thing if someone misunderstands what I'm saying, and we can clear it up quickly without a long drawn out battle of emotions, which always ends up in me being totally at fault. My husband, and I have those all the time, but like I said, it's cleared up quickly without me being a scapegoat. That kind of subtle manipulation is hard for me to logically explain, but I do know that I feel it when it's happening. I think NTs call these kinds of people 'toxic people', and they don't like being around them, either.

Yes. The man I know refers to himself as 'we' sometimes.



Your explanation was most helpful and, without a doubt, the most engaging post I've read on the forum. I really appreciate you taking the time share your thoughts. Thank you. And I thoroughly enjoyed your video.



No, I'm not sure. I've asked him twice but he doesn't answer. I can only go by what I know of him, and when I follow a list of aspie qualities, he matches the majority of them. So, perhaps he is somewhere else on the spectrum. Also, being on this forum, I see him in so much of what all of you write. It's amazing.



I consider myself to be a very straightforward person, and I really don't do hidden meanings. I wouldn't even know how. I was just telling my therapist yesterday how I tend to offend others by being blunt, and she said it's too much for most people. So when we communicate, I'm not asking him to interpret something other than what I've said. Although I have wondered if cultural difference might play a part? We're on different continents. I don't know.



This could definitely be a possibility.



Unfortunately, it doesn't take much for him to react. He also struggles with mood swings and that plays a part in all this too.



This has always been a concern of his - having secret feelings I refuse to share. But I don't, and it's been a frustration of mine that he only considers me 'honest' when I express negative emotions.

He says that he wants the truth gently held up to him like a mirror to show him how he behaves. He says he wants me to feel the freedom to be honest without any fear of backlash. But the way he reacts to me is not consistent with this. In my mind, I'm always clear and I don't do passive aggressive, so there are no layers of muck to wade through. Yet the misunderstandings continue.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to discuss this with me. I really appreciate your insight.