When people don't follow your advice.

Post Reply New Topic

No, not the kind I share freely here that people reject because they think I'm crazy even though I'm happier & healthier than they are. Not that advice at all. The kind they asked for & needed.

I've been helping out this local homeless-ish kid since last Summer when I met him. I set him up with a cell phone, work shoes, money for groceries, a job etc. He f****d up the job.. okay, fine, young people make mistakes. Live and learn. I set him up with another opportunity... he messed that one up 3 times before even starting work, so that was a non-starter. I told him (and his girlfriend) to not waste what little money they had on stupid crap and to get back to work asap. I made several suggestions of where etc and told him that he's gotta do his part and show he can put in the work, prove himself, then no problem I'll help him get better jobs & better pay - but learn to work first, prove you can show up every day and work like everyone else, then I'll make phone calls and pull strings and get something better going for you.. but there's no sense in that if you're going to make a mess of it. Baby steps, just get A job any job and do it for a while, get in the routine of getting up and being there on time etc. You wanna do this whole live on your own thing then you've gotta earn it like everyone else here that works 5 days a week! GRrrr, so frustrating.

They're both 18 and a bit of a young 18. She doesn't have any contact with her family I don't think, and he has dysfunctional relationships with his at best - that's why he left his mothers place last year. Ok, fine, don't stay in that situation.. but realize you've got to WORK in order to live your life independently. He's a SUPER NICE guy, that's why I can't just tell him to F off. He's pretty ADD, though, so that doesn't help him any.

Anyways, he's worked a couple days here and there since October and that's about it. They got evicted from her place about a month ago as it was her and her roommates place - they weren't supposed to have a third person (him) staying there for the price. They moved to a friends for a few weeks then they all got evicted from there and now they're scrambling daily for a couch to crash on or even just a bit of shelter outside of the rain to sleep outdoors.

I saw them a couple evenings ago and asked what their plans were/gave them s**t. It's far too late to be printing resumes and applying for local job openings. I told them to do that 3 months ago+. I told them to lookup and go to the nearest temp agency and get to to work for whatever rate of pay they offer. Work somewhere where they pay daily, or at the very least they pay weekly. Money asap is far better than job seeking for a few weeks and then another 2-3+ weeks before your first payday.. as they no longer have 5+ weeks to wait to get paid.

They're not gonna die, but for not listening to me their problems are getting much more difficult to solve. I think the gravity of the situation began to finally really sink in. Like WTF? You're 18 not completely stupid. You can't possibly expect to pay to live by sitting around smoking weed and watching netflix all day ffs. I told him/them that as soon as he has a better plan than I do that he could do things his way and I'll learn something from him, but until then, do what I say and you guys will be okay. There's two of them, so if one has to solve the problem of shelter for the night the other can go work a shift for a temp agency and trade off daily for as long as it takes if that's what it takes. Make a deal with their friend who's couch they're on to stay there longer knowing that come Friday he'll get paid his rent etc.

Not my problems to solve.. but still, I guess I'm personally/emotionally invested in their success and want to see them back on top vs. regressing further from the better place they were in ~5 months ago. I told him, though, I don't have a place to invite you to (but I've thought about breaking those rules.. I rent from family, but it's not mine or my family's job to shelter them. I'm also house sitting for extended family for another couple weeks or so and it's just me in a ~2800sf house a few connected cities over - not supposed to have guests here.. and they're Not my problem. but I feel for them. I've thought about maybe letting them crash on the floor and kicking them out in the morning and telling them to go to f*****g work for the day etc. Or maybe if they have no access at their friends I'll let them into either house to shower/do laundry etc something like that.) AND while I have savings/investments I literally have left myself with next to no cash on hand - only groceries/gas money, that's it, so it's not like I can just empty my wallet if I felt like it. Probably a good thing I can't, as I've already lent him money (he's repaid some, then borrowed more) and lending him more money isn't going to solve any problems of him not going to work. In a way, being in such a tight spot (which I told him would happen if he didn't get to work) might end up being a blessing for them both because they know it's not how they want to live and so Maybe, just MAYBE, they'll both get to work and learn How to work, accept low pay and undesirable jobs and work their way out of their current problems, then onwards and upwards to bigger better things.

100% of this could have been avoided if he'd listened to me in the first place, though. That's why this is a bit frustrating for me and I'm just venting a bit about it. I'm not perfect and don't have all the answers, but I'm doing better than them and have better ones than they do. I told him to contact me DAILY with a quick text/message in order to help keep himself on track with his goals. I only ever hear from him when he wants a favour or needs money/help beyond what he can do for himself. I've told him that's annoying, too, as I'd rather hear from him regularly and know that he's doing better bit by bit and then when we do hang out we can have more positive conversations about the progress he's made instead of me giving him s**t for ignoring my advice and doing the exact opposite of what I said to do which has resulted in ever bigger problems to solve.

I think I've given him good advice with his/her next right move being to go get to work for a temp agency ASAP before they have to resort to doing anything illegal/unhealthy for money out of desperation. If anyone here has any input as to what they'd advise these two to do, or what you'd do/not do if you were in my shoes, I'm all ears. More perspectives are always welcome & if through a collaborative effort here on the forums I'm able to give him better advice, or figure out how to break through to him and get him to take action and follow said advice, well, all the better, really.

I followed up and sent messages with info for the nearest temp agency. They can reply when they have wifi. They replied and said they both went and filled out paperwork to work for the nearest temp agency.

Now hopefully these two listen up and listen good - and better yet; take action. Every. Day.

I truly hope that this is a rock bottom moment for them and Now they’ll start doing the things they need to for themselves. So long as they’re making a solid effort I’ll continue to mentor and assist them. When they f**k up I’ll give ‘em s**t and push them back in the right direction. Hopefully what happens is that they work themselves into an ever better situation and then our contact is more social and I can do things like teach him how to drive. Baby steps, though. He’s gotta do the work to earn himself his next opportunities.

You're doing a nice thing for these people---but they keep effing up. How do they eff up? Do they not get to work on time?

I just hope something sticks with both of them.

What do they do with the temp agencies? Load trucks, maybe construction laborer, maybe clerical work?

I guess there isn't a way for them to go to some sort of college/university in order to increase their qualifications?

Or some sort of trade school, funded by the government?

They probably don't totally embrace your advice because they are 18 years old. When I was 18, I wasn't really receptive to the advice of older people.

It is a pity they don't embrace the advice, though. I take that back (i.e., what I said about myself when I was 18): if I were homeless as an 18-year-old, I would have wanted to get myself out of homelessness through any (legal) means necessary.

Late for work/interviews, miss buses due to being late, stay home from work at the slightest sniffle.. terrible work ethic. Certainly not working like able bodied young people who need the money and want to make it on their own. Not at all. BUT, very VERY nice kid & probably didn't have very good examples to learn from growing up. I'm hoping that a decent work ethic can be learned and that him being caught between a rock and a hard place right now spurs him into action. Time will tell.

Yes, I, too, hope that something sticks with both of them. I made an extraordinary effort to give him a good start and he f****d it up a couple times instead of working like he needed the money & appreciating the work to have to do etc. But I guess people have to live and learn for themselves... hit rock bottom and then realize what they gotta do to make it. I'm hoping this whole experience is one of RAPID learning & progress and that they can work themselves out of it shortly and then keep listening to me & doing the things they need to in order to get themselves each step further along towards independence.

These temp agencies are mostly geared towards general labour vs. clerical/office stuff. Those type exist, too, but there's an oversupply of highly educated people here so jobs aren't readily available like they are with general labour. It typically tends to be warehouse work (loading/unloading trucks etc) or construction site cleanup or order picking etc. Stuff that almost anyone can do. I've worked through temp agencies in the past when I've needed the work and money. They serve their purpose.

College/Uni costs money. Besides that, I know he hasn't finished his high school yet and I doubt she has - although she may have. No point in spending $$$ they don't have on college at this point in either of their lives. They sort of need food & shelter and stability first.. by a country mile.

There are trade schools that are funded by gov't, as well as by unions etc. My father instructs at one part time. Getting connected with a trades education is not difficult. There are gov't programs that pay people to go learn a trade. There are also student loan options. Etc. But you still need a place to live, food to eat, transportation etc - all the basics before you're ready to go be a student of any kind. You also need to have a worth ethic and willingness to work/learn/earn that's stronger than they have right now. They need to get their very basic s**t together well enough not to be homeless before they can consider some sort of trades training - and then IF he picks something and follows through with it, I'll open doors for him. But until he's ready for that it's a waste of my time and energy to do so.

In the meantime I've told them to get to work via whichever temp agency ASAP to be earning some money and then that once they have some stability at all, that IMO, the very best jobs they could go get next would be at McDonald's because they will teach them how to work. McDonald's is a VERY WELL run business (textbook!) and is where I'd advise anyone to go learn how things are done - including CEO's of different businesses. I told them they should want to work there for a year to learn as much as they possibly can as what they'd learn working there would make them WAY more money working elsewhere later in life. One of my cousins is a swing manager at a local mcd's and she plans to go career with them. It wouldn't be hard for me to get them each jobs there (or other places) they just have to be willing to go to work every day, on time, and do their jobs. So far they haven't done that and that's why they're f****d. But if they get in the routine of it out of necessity via temp labour work, then after several weeks or so they should be able to save up enough money to get a place again etc and once they've got their s**t together just well enough to take their next steps in terms of working, if necessary, I'll get them jobs at a couple different places through friends who are almost always hiring. If they were willing to work 2 months ago I could have done the same, but their priorities have been smoking weed and doing nothing.. soooo, why would I do that? They'd just burn another bridge at this point. Way better that they f**k up temp jobs than a full time opportunity. Let them figure out how to be punctual and show up to a temp job every day for weeks on end for a while and then I'll know they can handle showing up to a regular job. Prove themselves first and then it'll be a really easy decision to stick my neck out and get them slightly better paying jobs because I'll be more confident that they won't f**k them up so easily or quickly.

You can only do so much.

Don't let them get YOU into trouble (though I'm sure you're cognizant of this possibility).

If they get addicted to any substance, I'd steer far away from them.

Do they have something like Job Corps in Canada? Some of the Job Corps are actually really good. It's sort of like a work camp for young adults, though probably not as strict as it was in the old days. The "clients" sleep, eat, and probably work in the same or nearby buildings in Job Corps. They earn minimum wage, and have a roof over their heads for probably at least a year.

No, afaik there is no federal gov't equivalent of America's Job Corps here in Canada. There are "camp jobs," in forestry/oil/gas/mining etc where everything is provided - but you still need to have your life together well enough to apply for those jobs, wait to get hired, get flown out there etc.

There's also welfare here. They could collect a cheque and have something - rent money - but I don't want to recommend they go request a crisis cheque and get themselves on welfare because then they might stay so lazy that they just stay on it as long as possible instead of learning how to work better.

edit: For the record there are an abundance of jobs available in nearly every sector. There are "hiring," signs outside of most businesses as well as on trucks/cars etc. So many people are moving away from the Vancouver area that it's hard for people to hire people, especially for low paid work because it's so expensive here. So, there are TONS of jobs available that pay enough to survive until you can get a better paying job. These two just decided to be lazy until it was far too late for those options. Now they have to temp gig it daily for weeks until they get themselves into a position where they can apply for other jobs.

Yep...that does tend to happen with welfare. I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

Are they “impaired” in any way—like autistic, for example?

In most situations, welfare should be avoided like the Plague.

He is definitely very ADD and that doesn't help things along when he "squirrels," and goes and does something else with his time even though he knew he had other important obligations. It doesn't help that they both smoke too much pot, too. I don't care if they're recreational pot smokers, or self medicating, or whatever.. but smoke it in the evening after work, not when you wake up and then do nothing all day except for laze around with your stoner friends watching netflix. That's what Saturday morning is for, not M-F.

His ADD doesn't help him, but it's not just that.. it's a motivation/work ethic thing for sure, too. He says yes and is willing to do jobs offered usually, but not always so that's been annoying. He's certainly not a motivated self starter that will go out and get a job within x time frame.. rather wait until it's far too late and have a "Oh f**k, now what?" wake up moment it seems.. even though I told him he'll run out of money soon so he'd better get back to work ASAP to prevent that. Nope, his priorities were being lazy and smoking weed, so now he's in a worse position than before.

She may also be a bit ADD. Neither of them is impaired beyond being able to work a simple job. They just need to have the will to do it, really. Even if they get a little unfocused at work someone can tell them to get back to it and they're capable. But he definitely needs to make a better effort to stay on task and get things done etc. That's why I seriously think they should both work at McDonald's. I worked there, so have countless others. I didn't realize the value of working at McDonald's until I went to business school and realized McDonald's is incredibly well run and their systemized training is second to none. I truly WANT them to both work there for at least a year, then move on to other "career," type jobs and take that training and work ethic with them.

Welfare.. yep. I could have collected it myself for years, but I refused. I made $0, then when I made any money at all I made $50-150/month. For me I felt that signing up for welfare would have been waving a white flag and quitting permanently and there was no way I'd do that. I'd rather struggle and work my way out of things and get back on top. I want to see these two do a similar thing, but I'm not sure yet that they have what it takes. My sister and her husband used to work together for real jerks, quit their jobs (rightfully so) and both worked for a temp agency for a while when they had to.. getting up at 3:30am to catch a bus for the privilege of doing so. She commented how these two don't seem too willing. She's right, too. I hope that changes REAL FAST for them. I fear that if I suggest they look into welfare as a temporary option that they'll get lazy enough to consider it a permanent option and then do NOTHING for as long as they can. I'd rather see them skip a few meals and be uncomfortably cold for a few days than point them in the direction of a cushy lazy option that will enable them to self sabotage the rest of their working lives. F that - not unless they're otherwise going to die.

Well, they are 18 years old and not very experience in life, i'll leave it to that.

Some people just do not want to change or take advice from someone except themselves or listen and fake that they listen, but they never come to the realisation that they need to do something different. They only realise that they should change when it is too late.

You cannot save everyone. Focus on the ones you can save.

I have a friend who was in a situation earlier that i wont go into. Me and apparently lots of others told him to change his life, we kept telling him what the problem was, and eventually he did change, but it took 1.5 years for him to realised it. Another friend in a longer situation with childhood trauma (bullying) hasn't changed at all and i've given up on him, i only have x units of energy to spend...

They're 18.. not 11. They fully comprehend that money is exchanged for goods & services, and that they need to be able to pay their rent every month or they won't have a place to live etc.

I fully get how people don't do things until they have to. In the example I related to them, I told them I'll sit in my car listening to a good song or two on the radio when I get home until it gets cold and I have to pee before I get out of my car and head inside. But at the same time I'm able to plan far enough ahead to know I need to have money coming in to pay my bills.

Also, it's not like they didn't have anyone to remind them of these things. I told him every time I had contact with him that he'd better get to work or he's going to run out of money for food/shelter, and he ignored me to his own peril.

He just messaged a few minutes ago asking if I had money for food. I told him the truth, that I've literally just left myself with gas money right now and don't have money to give him if I wanted to. I also told him I don't feel that bad for him at the moment because I KNOW I've been telling him for months to get a job and earn some money and he's ignored me. He'll struggle and life will be difficult for a short time, but he'll survive, and hopefully learn a whole lot in the process.

This is about to get very "meta"; please take a look at the information at this link.

http://www.johngouletmft.com/Breaking_T ... Newest.pdf

The Drama Triangle explains a recurring pattern in relationships. This is one reason why helping doesn't always help; so much depends on the underlying dynamics, and it's very easy to find yourself roped into this type of interaction when that was absolutely never your intention to begin with.

I haven't seen any recent discussion of this dynamic on site, been wondering if it's worth mentioning. Understanding this dynamic can save so much wasted effort and unnecessary pain...

The next link explains one of the reasons we tend to keep going round and round when we get caught up in this. Also, this is usually the next thing that needs to be addressed during the OMG-Am-I-Doing-That assessment process...

https://www.behavioraleconomics.com/min ... t-fallacy/

And a wee disclaimer. I'm not sharing this information as a way of looking down my nose at anyone; I'm sharing it because it's the only thing that helped me escape some pretty sad and serious bad craziness in my own life. I'd probably be long dead if I hadn't stumbled across this stuff - it was that bad.

And what I couldn't escape (seriously sick workplace dynamics - I had to eat, the cats had to eat, and the dysfunction was ubiquitous in my profession and my industry) - I could at least recognize, which allowed me to name the patterns and break their emotional hold on me.

Speaking of which: this person (next link) is a genius, and I would be seriously remiss if I did not give her both a shout out and a link right here. This is about sick systems, the blogger goes by "Issendai", she's a genius.

http://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html

Finally, if this stuff doesn't help, doesn't ring bells, turn lights on, whatever, please just pass it by. It may speak to others; it may speak to you at another time.

Why are you trying to be a social worker for these kids?

You wonder why they aren't taking your advice. Well, they probably CAN'T. First off, the human brain does not fully develop until the early 20s, and they aren't there yet. Second, in ideal human development, more and more responsibility can be taken on by the young person as they are supported by parents in their first steps to independence, but failing that, there may be a zigzag path while adult living skills are acquired, in a haphazard fashion, one bit at a time.

It does concern me that you get angry and borderline abusive when they fail to take your advice. Maybe these folks are better off without your help. I assume they'll eventually find a niche in modern life.

Wouldn’t it be something if cats could actually read, without us knowing it?

In the old days, it should be noted, it really wasn’t all that uncommon for young teenagers (and even younger kids)to be totally on their own. Child labor laws had their basis, of course. But some of these kids were able to manage pretty well, despite all which was part and parcel of child labor.

I met him last Summer working a landscaping job and offered him a ride home to find out that it was his second night staying in a safe house for homeless youth. Lucky him - I'm the guy who's done a charity fundraiser party for Vancouver youth homeless shelter because I care about homeless kids. I hooked him up with a full time job, work shoes, cell phone, and a ride to work for the first few weeks. He's made a lot of mistakes and regressed since then & is now in probably the worst spot he's gotten himself into yet.

Pfft, they "can't," take my advice. Puh-lease.. they're 18, not 11. My parents were married at 19 & 20 with my older brother on the way. My parents generation were MUCH more independent at younger ages than mine/this one. Jobs/finances/housing costs etc allowed those things for them much easier. But it's still entirely possible for a coupe of determined 18 year olds to still make a go of things. The problem is that these two don't seem too determined. I'm hoping they learn & change REAL FAST, though, for their sake.

Of course a zig-zag pattern is expected.. they're young, they're allowed to make mistakes. But to completely ignore the fact that you've got to work & earn money in order to pay to live, especially when someone (me) is reminding you of that regularly.. that's not so much a mistake as it is straight up stupid. That's why it's annoying. They didn't try something and fail, they failed to try.. and now their problems are compounding and becoming harder to solve. Of course it frustrates me to see my advice completely ignored and them do the exact opposite of what I said to do and the end result = flat broke & homeless. I feel that's a pretty normal reaction to ignored advice that was supposedly appreciated. They didn't have to solve their problems.. I handed them the solutions, but they ignored me so that's annoying.

How do you figure I'm abusive in any way shape or form?

Yeah, I'm sure they'd be better off without a single adult telling them what their next right move is. I'm sure they'd have been better off without the groceries they were able to buy because I lent him money, too. I'm so terrible at helping people and being generous with my time and money that everyone I help would be better off without my help. Ok, lady, whatever you say.

That age, I've found yes, there is an expectation in a minority of them that you don't have to work, money will come if they ask, help will come and possibly they'll have some hard times but eventually someone will come through.

Don't be that person and definitely DON'T allow them to sleep on the floor of the place you're house-sitting. You can't save some people from themselves and I doubt this will be their rock bottom.

When they want to make an effort to help themselves, then you can help. But notice all the help you've given hooking him up with a job and he in return texts you asking for money instead.

Put your energy into some other people for a while. This is a losing proposition with these two.

That is because we have such a good society as the western world is right now - versus how bad our parents had growing up in the 1940-1960s. You either worked or you starved to death, you had to mature fast. That requirement isn't needed in todays societies. Maturity is not an integer value, it is a mental developmental process that is different for everyone.

That is right, they are not determined to do anything, and you are enabling them. Let them run into a wall and mature in the process - or they never will.