Framework for Care of Upset Person

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funeralxempire
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24 Oct 2021, 11:31 am

AprilR wrote:
Thanks for posting this. I think a lot of neurotypicals are guilty of this too. Dismissing feelings as illogical/ worries as being spoiled.

I also think that even if someone is being unreasonable and immature, maybe it is Just because of the state of mind they are in? I know that i can be oversensitive and illogical sometimes but saying that "you are being illogical/spoiled" etc. Doesn't accomplish anything. After validating the emotion, and maybe doing something that makes you feel better you can then see things more clearly and say "yes, i behaved irrationally, i was being oversensitive" and work on ways to resolve the problem


I agree and that seems to be the point, in the moment you might not be able to effectively communicate that the other party is being unreasonable but comforting instead of arguing might help get them to a calmer state where they can reevaluate things instead of just convincing them to get their back up more, become more defensive and less reasonable, etc.


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24 Oct 2021, 1:42 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
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Framework for Care of Upset Person:
Upset states are, in the vast majority of cases, less about specific solutions than they are about emotional experience, like you somewhat mentioned already. In order to keep from escalating them, or making people feel more upset and/or rejected, it needs to be approached with this in mind. Solutions aren't wrong either, but they can't be the immediate response.

Method for Care:
1) Acknowledge and understand emotion. Start by trying to identify what is being felt by the other person. Asking directly is perfectly acceptable, as is following up with specific questions to clarify things you might be misunderstanding. This serves the two functions of giving you more information to work with, along with reassuring the other person that you are listening to them.
2) Validate emotion. Even if the other person is being 'unreasonable' to you, or their emotional state doesn't make sense after you've asked several questions, that does not mean it is invalid to them. Their emotions need to be recognized as valid and having good reason from their perspective, which may include information or experiences you are unaware of and/or they can't really explain. Most conflict escalations come from emotions not being recognized as valid like this.
3) Offer advice and/or solutions, but don't force them. Be present. Gentle reassurance is important, and touch may be good with permission (if it is a close enough social relationship). Let the other person vent and express themselves if needed, while asking clarifying questions like in step 1. People often need to feel emotionally validated before they are willing to talk in more detail, even close partners.
4) Repeat step 3 every 3-5 minutes if offer for advice is not requested/accepted, and if they are no longer actively venting. This should help them calm down until you can give advice or they affirm that they feel good enough to continue without advice.


My friend posted this and it seemed like it would be useful to share. Quite often posters here seek to council others but seem too focused on offering solutions and miss the more important part of offering comfort.


So when I see that person already had their emotions acknowledged and validated many times in the thread by other members, according to this framework I can offer this person advice to do HIIT burpees and repeat step 3 every 3-5 minutes? Some people like yourself are mad at me when I repeat step 3 once every day or two. I can't imagine how mad you guys would be if I would repeat it every 3-5 minutes.



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24 Oct 2021, 1:49 pm

Well I think that's fine BR. I mean it's better than going all the way back to step one and covering the same ground as will have already been covered.

I mean I can't always revert to this manual every time someone has a challenge so I'll keep away from the haven in the future. It's all becoming too complicated for me.



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24 Oct 2021, 1:51 pm

badRobot wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Quote:
Framework for Care of Upset Person:
Upset states are, in the vast majority of cases, less about specific solutions than they are about emotional experience, like you somewhat mentioned already. In order to keep from escalating them, or making people feel more upset and/or rejected, it needs to be approached with this in mind. Solutions aren't wrong either, but they can't be the immediate response.

Method for Care:
1) Acknowledge and understand emotion. Start by trying to identify what is being felt by the other person. Asking directly is perfectly acceptable, as is following up with specific questions to clarify things you might be misunderstanding. This serves the two functions of giving you more information to work with, along with reassuring the other person that you are listening to them.
2) Validate emotion. Even if the other person is being 'unreasonable' to you, or their emotional state doesn't make sense after you've asked several questions, that does not mean it is invalid to them. Their emotions need to be recognized as valid and having good reason from their perspective, which may include information or experiences you are unaware of and/or they can't really explain. Most conflict escalations come from emotions not being recognized as valid like this.
3) Offer advice and/or solutions, but don't force them. Be present. Gentle reassurance is important, and touch may be good with permission (if it is a close enough social relationship). Let the other person vent and express themselves if needed, while asking clarifying questions like in step 1. People often need to feel emotionally validated before they are willing to talk in more detail, even close partners.
4) Repeat step 3 every 3-5 minutes if offer for advice is not requested/accepted, and if they are no longer actively venting. This should help them calm down until you can give advice or they affirm that they feel good enough to continue without advice.


My friend posted this and it seemed like it would be useful to share. Quite often posters here seek to council others but seem too focused on offering solutions and miss the more important part of offering comfort.


So when I see that person already had their emotions acknowledged and validated many times in the thread by other members, according to this framework I can offer this person advice to do HIIT burpees and repeat step 3 every 3-5 minutes? Some people like yourself are mad at me when I repeat step 3 once every day or two. I can't imagine how mad you guys would be if I would repeat it every 3-5 minutes.


You should probably still acknowledge their emotions and take care of that aspect initially to avoid coming off as uncaring and just there to deliver over-simplified solutions that don't actually address the problem. If one already has good rapport with OP that would be a good reason to skip or reduce those steps though.

One tends to get better results when they demonstrate concern over the person's emotional state than when they start off snarky before quickly pivoting to hijack the OP's thread to make it all about themselves and how effective their solutions are.


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24 Oct 2021, 2:09 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
You should probably still acknowledge their emotions and take care of that aspect initially to avoid coming off as uncaring and just there to deliver over-simplified solutions that don't actually address the problem. If one already has good rapport with OP that would be a good reason to skip or reduce those steps though.

One tends to get better results when they demonstrate concern over the person's emotional state than when they start off snarky before quickly pivoting to hijack the OP's thread to make it all about themselves and how effective their solutions are.

How would you approach convincing that person that their real problem objectively has nothing to do with the problem they believe to be cause of depression? How would you offer solution of true underlying problem instead of solutions related to negative false beliefs that person expects to receive?

I still think every 3-5 minutes is too much, do you think every 20-30 minutes would still work as well?



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24 Oct 2021, 2:12 pm

badRobot wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You should probably still acknowledge their emotions and take care of that aspect initially to avoid coming off as uncaring and just there to deliver over-simplified solutions that don't actually address the problem. If one already has good rapport with OP that would be a good reason to skip or reduce those steps though.

One tends to get better results when they demonstrate concern over the person's emotional state than when they start off snarky before quickly pivoting to hijack the OP's thread to make it all about themselves and how effective their solutions are.

How would you approach convincing that person that their real problem objectively has nothing to do with the problem they believe to be cause of depression? How would you offer solution of true underlying problem instead of solutions related to negative false beliefs that person expects to receive?

I still think every 3-5 minutes is too much, do you think every 20-30 minutes would still work as good?


I don't think you can convince anyone if they don't want to accept a solution. Sometimes they don't even care about the solution. If that's frustrating or something that you personally can't relate to i think you should leave them alone.



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24 Oct 2021, 2:16 pm

AprilR wrote:
badRobot wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You should probably still acknowledge their emotions and take care of that aspect initially to avoid coming off as uncaring and just there to deliver over-simplified solutions that don't actually address the problem. If one already has good rapport with OP that would be a good reason to skip or reduce those steps though.

One tends to get better results when they demonstrate concern over the person's emotional state than when they start off snarky before quickly pivoting to hijack the OP's thread to make it all about themselves and how effective their solutions are.

How would you approach convincing that person that their real problem objectively has nothing to do with the problem they believe to be cause of depression? How would you offer solution of true underlying problem instead of solutions related to negative false beliefs that person expects to receive?

I still think every 3-5 minutes is too much, do you think every 20-30 minutes would still work as good?


I don't think you can convince anyone if they don't want to accept a solution. Sometimes they don't even care about the solution. If that's frustrating or something that you personally can't relate to i think you should leave them alone.

If you really want to help depressed person, not just demonstrate how "supportive" you are this should be your ultimate goal. Even if you are doomed to fail it is still worth trying. What I'm asking is what would your approach be before you give up on this person entirely.

Offering advice depressed person doesn't want to accept is actually a moral dilemma similar to tackling a person trying to jump off the bridge even when this person clearly stated their intention to die. It is only expected denial would be default response.



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24 Oct 2021, 2:23 pm

badRobot wrote:
AprilR wrote:
badRobot wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You should probably still acknowledge their emotions and take care of that aspect initially to avoid coming off as uncaring and just there to deliver over-simplified solutions that don't actually address the problem. If one already has good rapport with OP that would be a good reason to skip or reduce those steps though.

One tends to get better results when they demonstrate concern over the person's emotional state than when they start off snarky before quickly pivoting to hijack the OP's thread to make it all about themselves and how effective their solutions are.

How would you approach convincing that person that their real problem objectively has nothing to do with the problem they believe to be cause of depression? How would you offer solution of true underlying problem instead of solutions related to negative false beliefs that person expects to receive?

I still think every 3-5 minutes is too much, do you think every 20-30 minutes would still work as good?


I don't think you can convince anyone if they don't want to accept a solution. Sometimes they don't even care about the solution. If that's frustrating or something that you personally can't relate to i think you should leave them alone.

If you really want to help depressed person, not just demonstrate how "supportive" you are this should be your ultimate goal. Even if you are doomed to fail it is still worth trying. What I'm asking is what would your approach be before you give up on this person entirely.


I think you should make a balance of validating their feelings and offering solutions.
Dealing with depressed people is not easy for anyone and not being a mental health professional there's a limit to what people can do. The best thing you can advise them is to seek professional help i think.



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24 Oct 2021, 2:25 pm

badRobot wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You should probably still acknowledge their emotions and take care of that aspect initially to avoid coming off as uncaring and just there to deliver over-simplified solutions that don't actually address the problem. If one already has good rapport with OP that would be a good reason to skip or reduce those steps though.

One tends to get better results when they demonstrate concern over the person's emotional state than when they start off snarky before quickly pivoting to hijack the OP's thread to make it all about themselves and how effective their solutions are.

How would you approach convincing that person that their real problem objectively has nothing to do with the problem they believe to be cause of depression? How would you offer solution of true underlying problem instead of solutions related to negative false beliefs that person expects to receive?

I still think every 3-5 minutes is too much, do you think every 20-30 minutes would still work as well?


I would say 3-5 minutes makes sense in the context of a real-time chat, but if it's in a forum like here one would need to consider the tempo the thread is moving at.

I would also say no matter what your intentions are if all one is getting in response to their efforts is making the person more upset they're obliged to back off and move on, especially if they're increasingly relying on trying to debate the person, or debate people pointing out that they're just escalating things and making them worse. One can't debate a person out of feeling like s**t and quite often all that's accomplished is giving that person another defeat to feel bad about, even if they get defensive in the moment and seem 'energized' briefly it isn't helping.


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24 Oct 2021, 2:33 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
badRobot wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You should probably still acknowledge their emotions and take care of that aspect initially to avoid coming off as uncaring and just there to deliver over-simplified solutions that don't actually address the problem. If one already has good rapport with OP that would be a good reason to skip or reduce those steps though.

One tends to get better results when they demonstrate concern over the person's emotional state than when they start off snarky before quickly pivoting to hijack the OP's thread to make it all about themselves and how effective their solutions are.

How would you approach convincing that person that their real problem objectively has nothing to do with the problem they believe to be cause of depression? How would you offer solution of true underlying problem instead of solutions related to negative false beliefs that person expects to receive?

I still think every 3-5 minutes is too much, do you think every 20-30 minutes would still work as well?


I would say 3-5 minutes makes sense in the context of a real-time chat, but if it's in a forum like here one would need to consider the tempo the thread is moving at.

I would also say no matter what your intentions are if all one is getting in response to their efforts is making the person more upset they're obliged to back off and move on, especially if they're increasingly relying on trying to debate the person, or debate people pointing out that they're just escalating things and making them worse. One can't debate a person out of feeling like s**t and quite often all that's accomplished is giving that person another defeat to feel bad about, even if they get defensive in the moment and seem 'energized' briefly it isn't helping.


If depressed person has a negative false belief, their default response is always denial. Do you suggest we should stop even trying to actually help? How would you approach convincing depressed person to do 10 HIIT burpees every morning if you would be 100% confident it would solve their problem once and for all?



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24 Oct 2021, 2:47 pm

badRobot wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
badRobot wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You should probably still acknowledge their emotions and take care of that aspect initially to avoid coming off as uncaring and just there to deliver over-simplified solutions that don't actually address the problem. If one already has good rapport with OP that would be a good reason to skip or reduce those steps though.

One tends to get better results when they demonstrate concern over the person's emotional state than when they start off snarky before quickly pivoting to hijack the OP's thread to make it all about themselves and how effective their solutions are.

How would you approach convincing that person that their real problem objectively has nothing to do with the problem they believe to be cause of depression? How would you offer solution of true underlying problem instead of solutions related to negative false beliefs that person expects to receive?

I still think every 3-5 minutes is too much, do you think every 20-30 minutes would still work as well?


I would say 3-5 minutes makes sense in the context of a real-time chat, but if it's in a forum like here one would need to consider the tempo the thread is moving at.

I would also say no matter what your intentions are if all one is getting in response to their efforts is making the person more upset they're obliged to back off and move on, especially if they're increasingly relying on trying to debate the person, or debate people pointing out that they're just escalating things and making them worse. One can't debate a person out of feeling like s**t and quite often all that's accomplished is giving that person another defeat to feel bad about, even if they get defensive in the moment and seem 'energized' briefly it isn't helping.


If depressed person has a negative false belief, their default response is always denial. Do you suggest we should stop even trying to actually help? How would you approach convincing depressed person to do 10 HIIT burpees every morning if you would be 100% confident it would solve their problem once and for all?


That doesn't work for everyone and you've had more than one person explain this to you based on their own personal experiences so saying that's an oversimplification that won't help everyone isn't telling you to stop trying to help, it's telling you to consider options beyond the one you're fixated on.


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24 Oct 2021, 2:54 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
That doesn't work for everyone and you've had more than one person explain this to you based on their own personal experiences so saying that's an oversimplification that won't help everyone isn't telling you to stop trying to help, it's telling you to consider options beyond the one you're fixated on.


I'm not talking about your belief of whether brute facts of human physiology are true, let's not start this debate again.

How would you approach offering ANY solution that you believe would help when default response of a depressed person is denial?



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24 Oct 2021, 3:00 pm

badRobot wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
That doesn't work for everyone and you've had more than one person explain this to you based on their own personal experiences so saying that's an oversimplification that won't help everyone isn't telling you to stop trying to help, it's telling you to consider options beyond the one you're fixated on.


I'm not talking about your belief of whether brute facts of human physiology are true, let's not start this debate again.

How would you approach offering ANY solution that you believe would help when default response of a depressed person is denial?


How many times should a person be told to do something they're physically incapable of due to injuries, or other medical concerns before the person repeating the same advice accepts their advice isn't applicable? Who cares about those heart and joint issues, high intensity physical exercise is the only way and anyone who disagrees isn't helping.

I disengage if what I'm offering isn't helpful or applicable.


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24 Oct 2021, 3:10 pm

I just think everyone has their own way of trying to be helpful.

Personally I would choose good diet and exercise as well so I get where BR is coming from. I also get his frustration when people don't understand that he is ultimately trying to help. But after trying a couple of times you do have to walk away or at least try a different approach.

I'm a logical person so I would always use logic over emotions. It's the way I am and I don't think any manual or special training would make me change my ways.

I just usually drop in, say my bit, wish the person all the best and then leave it at that. I don't really need to know if they have utilised my offerings. That's up to them.



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24 Oct 2021, 3:18 pm

babybird wrote:
I just think everyone has their own way of trying to be helpful.

Personally I would choose good diet and exercise as well so I get where BR is coming from. I also get his frustration when people don't understand that he is ultimately trying to help. But after trying a couple of times you do have to walk away or at least try a different approach.

I'm a logical person so I would always use logic over emotions. It's the way I am and I don't think any manual or special training would make me change my ways.

I just usually drop in, say my bit, wish the person all the best and then leave it at that. I don't really need to know if they have utilised my offerings. That's up to them.


I don't think you've ever faced the sorta complaints some other posters might have about how they conduct themselves.


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24 Oct 2021, 3:22 pm

No I'm pretty well tolerated round here.