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Pepe
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25 May 2022, 7:17 pm

Fnord wrote:
Do we really need more than one thread addressing the same subject?

If not, can this thread be merged with[/color]  This Other Thread ?


I prefer Jakki's thread...
...because she doesn't have a habit of requesting posts are deleted and has no history of locking threads. 8)


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Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


auntblabby
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25 May 2022, 7:17 pm

a dirty little secret is that bullies are the de-facto enforcers for our top-down form of social order where the omegas are systematically squashed and punished as a sort of symbolic piñata, "at least i'm not like that poor slob" said by the legions of delta drones to keep them in their place.



Pepe
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25 May 2022, 7:21 pm

magz wrote:
kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Some experts suggest that changing the attitudes and involvement of bystanders could have the biggest impact on bullies. Bystanders are kids who witness but are not victims of bullying. Since bullies love an audience, a bystander's encouragement or toleration of the bully will make the bully stronger. Training through role-playing can help youth recognize a potentially harmful situation and do something positive. By simply saying, "That's not cool," a bystander can stop a bully's activities.
That's actually encouraged in my culture. Taking side of the victim is seen as noble.


But what if *you* are the victim of bullying?
I find it easier to roll on my back, feet in the air and say "Uncle". <strong irony> :mrgreen:


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Pepe
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25 May 2022, 7:23 pm

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
magz wrote:
And, possibly, frustrated teenagers really have less options to deal with their frustration in less destructive ways?


It would help if fewer adults and authorities were ignorant as*holes: go to them with bullying and you get, "Oh, they are just teasing you because they like you." what else can you do but start killing people to get the point across? And you will fail there too because of the adults and authorities who politicize you. And then you decide, "Nothing I do matters. I do not matter. I guess I'll kill me. And even that will not matter in the end."


Sounds like a plan. :thumright:
Obviously a joke. <sigh> :?


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Pepe
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25 May 2022, 7:30 pm

Fnord wrote:
The last time I went to my parents about bullies at school, my mom said, "Knocked him on his ass!"

My dad said, "And make sure he doesn't get up right away."

So I did.

That put an end to the physical bullying, but not the snide comments and verbal attacks.

(And never once did the use of firearms cross my mind.)[/color]


Not everyone feels they can fight back the way you did.
If mental illness is involved, people are often blinded to better solutions.

These days, I would video capture the events and send a *copy* to the authorities, along with sending it to my, or my dad's solicitor/lawyer.

We are not all the same.
Life is not that simple.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


IsabellaLinton
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25 May 2022, 7:37 pm

The problem is that bullying is often insidious, like the frog in boiling water. It starts with subtle exclusion and the normal selection of friends who make us feel comfortable. Most of us don't set out to be bullies when we are little but if there's a classmate we don't like, we won't play with them unless it's forced. We shouldn't have to play with people we don't like, quite frankly, so long as we aren't being rude or purposely hurting their feelings. We should all be free to trust our gut instinct and play with whomever makes us feel happy. Unfortunately, that leaves a lot of children feeling ignored or disliked when the "bully" had no such intention.

As kids get older they might engage in overt bullying, but most of it isn't easy to spot. It's not like children go around threatening one another, or engaging in physical violence. Not to generalise, but girls can be particularly subtle with their behaviour. Sarcastic one-liners can be taken as jokes, and teachers can't be expected to monitor or stop every utterance from every child throughout their career. By the time kids are in middle school or high school bullying has moved online and it's out of the school's jurisdiction. It looks like gossip and gaslighting, but it's not severe enough to be reported to police. There's a fine line between students' rights as autonomous thinkers when choosing their friends, and the rights of victims who feel bullied. It's also hard to distinguish between bullies and victims, as most people play both roles at different times in their lives. Bullies have likely been victims, and victims have likely been bullies. Quite often it's simultaneous depending on the context or social pressure.



cyberdad
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25 May 2022, 7:49 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
It's also hard to distinguish between bullies and victims, as most people play both roles at different times in their lives. Bullies have likely been victims, and victims have likely been bullies. Quite often it's simultaneous depending on the context or social pressure.


I think this is poorly understood in general but bullies often normalise bullying as well among their classmates so that on the one hand bullies are enabled by the lack of action of schools, teachers or their classmates but I have seen with my own eyes that even teachers promote bullying (Pepe and I both experienced this when we were in school here in Australia) and that classmates join in bullying and become bullies themselves. Group behaviour makes it hard to pinpoint what makes a bully as I have seen popular erstwhile normal functioning kids turn nasty when they think its ok to pile on the hapless victim. Many of the bullies from school I knew now hold positions of responsibility. I mentioned already that one particularly vile nasty bully who also like to torture and kill animals is now a prominent psychiatrist who is the head of mental health in the state he lives in.



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25 May 2022, 8:00 pm

Many bullies / psychopaths end up with positions of power. Competition and ego draw them to jobs where they're in charge of other people or other people's future. That's why there's such a high number of people with NPD in upper levels of government as well as healthcare, education, religious institutions, the media, and even entertainment (think: Harvey Weinstein, Phil Spector, etc.)

Group behaviour - yes that's another good point. It's not always intentional because again, kids are free to hang out with whomever they choose. They might not intend for someone to feel excluded but at the same time they shouldn't have to be friends with people they don't like. This doesn't mean they should be free to belittle anyone, or make their life miserable with any form of groupthink or slander.



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25 May 2022, 8:48 pm

Am not apt to agree with the idea of this being a gun issue, but a violence issue .


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Pepe
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25 May 2022, 11:34 pm

cyberdad wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
It's also hard to distinguish between bullies and victims, as most people play both roles at different times in their lives. Bullies have likely been victims, and victims have likely been bullies. Quite often it's simultaneous depending on the context or social pressure.


I think this is poorly understood in general but bullies often normalise bullying as well among their classmates so that on the one hand bullies are enabled by the lack of action of schools, teachers or their classmates but I have seen with my own eyes that even teachers promote bullying (Pepe and I both experienced this when we were in school here in Australia) and that classmates join in bullying and become bullies themselves. Group behaviour makes it hard to pinpoint what makes a bully as I have seen popular erstwhile normal functioning kids turn nasty when they think its ok to pile on the hapless victim. Many of the bullies from school I knew now hold positions of responsibility. I mentioned already that one particularly vile nasty bully who also like to torture and kill animals is now a prominent psychiatrist who is the head of mental health in the state he lives in.


There is a famous psychological study that validates how people can become sociopathic.
It dealt with fake electric shock treatment, but the people who did it didn't know the "victim" was only acting.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Pepe
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25 May 2022, 11:36 pm

Jakki wrote:
Am not apt to agree with the idea of this being a gun issue, but a violence issue .


If there were no guns, there would still be cars.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


cyberdad
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25 May 2022, 11:45 pm

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
It's also hard to distinguish between bullies and victims, as most people play both roles at different times in their lives. Bullies have likely been victims, and victims have likely been bullies. Quite often it's simultaneous depending on the context or social pressure.


I think this is poorly understood in general but bullies often normalise bullying as well among their classmates so that on the one hand bullies are enabled by the lack of action of schools, teachers or their classmates but I have seen with my own eyes that even teachers promote bullying (Pepe and I both experienced this when we were in school here in Australia) and that classmates join in bullying and become bullies themselves. Group behaviour makes it hard to pinpoint what makes a bully as I have seen popular erstwhile normal functioning kids turn nasty when they think its ok to pile on the hapless victim. Many of the bullies from school I knew now hold positions of responsibility. I mentioned already that one particularly vile nasty bully who also like to torture and kill animals is now a prominent psychiatrist who is the head of mental health in the state he lives in.


There is a famous psychological study that validates how people can become sociopathic.
It dealt with fake electric shock treatment, but the people who did it didn't know the "victim" was only acting.


Ah yes, the Milgram study. This actually ties in with the point made by Isabella Linton about group behaviour which is the drive/need to conform and be accepted by your peers even to the extent of joining in bullying victims.

Milgram was interested in obedience to an authority figure - he found people were more likely to throw the switch and electrocute a perfect stranger if the person giving them the order was a person of authority/in power.

I think both theories can be intertwined in that a member of a group can feel compelled by their peers to act in a sociopathic manner in order to please.



kitesandtrainsandcats
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25 May 2022, 11:47 pm

Pepe wrote:
Jakki wrote:
Am not apt to agree with the idea of this being a gun issue, but a violence issue .


If there were no guns, there would still be cars.


Which brings to mind,

https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... ana-school
"

By Christian Martinez Staff Writer
May 23, 2022 5:55 PM PT

After a driver struck and injured three children Monday morning near a Santa Ana elementary school, police found “incendiary devices” inside the car, authorities said.

The incident was reported around 8:30 a.m. when a vehicle struck a boy and two girls, all under 12 years old, on a sidewalk near Taft Elementary School.
...

Officers searched the vehicle and found an “incendiary device,” then requested the help of the Orange County bomb squad, Lopez said.

The bomb squad continued to search the vehicle and found three additional devices.

Lopez did not have additional details regarding the devices as of Monday afternoon.

During the investigation, police found that the driver of the vehicle had reportedly trespassed at Taft Elementary before the crash and asked to use the restroom but was turned away by school personnel.
"


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26 May 2022, 12:35 am

Pepe wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Do we really need more than one thread addressing the same subject?

If not, can this thread be merged with  This Other Thread ?


I prefer Jakki's thread...
...because she doesn't have a habit of requesting posts are deleted and has no history of locking threads. 8)

I agree. It does become difficult to hold a discussion where there is the possibility that the instigator of the thread may "take one's ball and go home" at any time, demanding that the conversation be forcible concluded despite other participants desire to continue discussion on the subject, and potentially forcing multiple threads to have to be created in order to continue a discussion which could have easily been permitted to continue in the original thread.

Maybe that's something the moderators could look into - requiring a demonstration as to why threads should be closed and not simply accept a "please close this thread" request when there is ongoing, on-topic discussion taking place in it.


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Pepe
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26 May 2022, 12:45 am

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
It's also hard to distinguish between bullies and victims, as most people play both roles at different times in their lives. Bullies have likely been victims, and victims have likely been bullies. Quite often it's simultaneous depending on the context or social pressure.


I think this is poorly understood in general but bullies often normalise bullying as well among their classmates so that on the one hand bullies are enabled by the lack of action of schools, teachers or their classmates but I have seen with my own eyes that even teachers promote bullying (Pepe and I both experienced this when we were in school here in Australia) and that classmates join in bullying and become bullies themselves. Group behaviour makes it hard to pinpoint what makes a bully as I have seen popular erstwhile normal functioning kids turn nasty when they think its ok to pile on the hapless victim. Many of the bullies from school I knew now hold positions of responsibility. I mentioned already that one particularly vile nasty bully who also like to torture and kill animals is now a prominent psychiatrist who is the head of mental health in the state he lives in.


There is a famous psychological study that validates how people can become sociopathic.
It dealt with fake electric shock treatment, but the people who did it didn't know the "victim" was only acting.


Ah yes, the Milgram study. This actually ties in with the point made by Isabella Linton about group behaviour which is the drive/need to conform and be accepted by your peers even to the extent of joining in bullying victims.

Milgram was interested in obedience to an authority figure - he found people were more likely to throw the switch and electrocute a perfect stranger if the person giving them the order was a person of authority/in power.

I think both theories can be intertwined in that a member of a group can feel compelled by their peers to act in a sociopathic manner in order to please.


From memory, I believe the study was trying to explain Nazi obedience (Fuhrerprinzip) during WWII.
I think they got their answer.


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.


Pepe
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26 May 2022, 1:13 am

Quote:
Piers Morgan blasts claims 'more armed guards' will prevent school shootings as he laments 'absurdity' of US inaction on gun control

The broadcaster lashed out at claims the massacre in Texas could have been prevented by more armed guards as he interviewed the mother of a six-year-old boy killed in the Sandy Hook tragedy in an emotionally-charged segment.
Charlie CoëCommissioning Editor
3 min read
May 26, 2022


https://www.skynews.com.au/world-news/p ... erallPos=1


_________________
Laughter is the best medicine. Age-appropriate behaviour is an arbitrary NT social construct.
Don't tell me white lies. Gaslight me at your peril. Don't give me your bad attitude. Hypnosis, psychosis. Tomarto, tomayto. There are *4* lights. Honey badger.
If I'm so bad, pass me by. ;)


And one more thing,



Also, as George Carlin said, "I have no stake in the outcome." I'll stick around for the comedy.

"A stranger is a friend gang-stalker you haven't met yet."
Truth may be inconvenient but it is never politically incorrect...The Oracle of Truth has spoken...8)
Read my lips:-I am not a fan of the orange man.-I would never vote for the Republican party given the chance.-I am interested in being objective and rational.