Possible Time-Traveler?

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Fnord
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14 Aug 2008, 10:36 pm

Retrograde time travel is impossible, only because it would violate causality - causes must precede their effects. Thus, we can not have a time traveller depart the future (the cause) to arrive in the past (the effect).

One may as well believe that Hiroshima was destroyed in 1946 by a bomb dropped on it in 1966. It just ain't gonna happen!

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greenblue
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14 Aug 2008, 10:59 pm

If time travel happens to be possible in real life, most likely it would be limited at the atomic level only, if time travel was possible. But I really can't say anything for certain.

Quote:

Yes, the impossibility of time travel makes sense, like Hawking stated:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology ... conjecture

Although, Hawking later stated the possibility of our universe being part of a multiverse, in this case, causality wouldn't be an issue.

On the other hand, one could argue that centuries ago, people and scientists would not believe that one day humankind could go to the moon, or imagine how technology like the Internet exists today, would likely reject the idea.

Quote:

One may as well believe that Hiroshima was destroyed in 1946 by a bomb dropped on it in 1966. It just ain't gonna happen!

With just a nuclear explosion, no.

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Ishmael
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15 Aug 2008, 4:48 am

Hey! I don't talk about your personal lives, do I? Besides, it was an accident!

Oh, but, seriously - researching so-called "time travel" and "worm holes" are my hobby.
I've sort of hit upon a vague, new, theory I'm developing for "time travel". More as a laugh, because it's so dangerous it could f**k up the universe if I really tried it... maybe I will one day, that'll be fun...

But, damn, is it a lot of work!! If you've never tried theory work; don't. It means a lot of all-nighters, sitting at a table surrounded by computers and papers, with a glass of scotch and coke, the ice-cubes long since melted...

Still, it's fun when you reach a conclusion! FTL is much easier than "time travel"...
I mean, with time, I've figured how to "displace" yourself and travel forward rapidly, a first-step, but FTL I've got rudimentary designs for a "gate", of sorts, that has a sort of "atomic jump" mechanism of transportation...
Think skipping rocks over a pond, except more sub-atomic particles in a quantum sense... S-FTL is easier, still. It's just basic mathematics; acceleration, force over hull, etc., etc. to determine the energy requirments to maintain kinetic stability of hull-structure at 100% all-round.

Wow, I have complicated hobbies... not to mention viral research, genetic research, etc.
Damn, you should try being an independant scientist! Ah, true scientific freedom! No corporate or industrial requirements!

Have fun with that.

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iamnotaparakeet
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15 Aug 2008, 10:28 am

Ishmael wrote:

Hey! I don't talk about your personal lives, do I? Besides, it was an accident!

Oh, but, seriously - researching so-called "time travel" and "worm holes" are my hobby.
I've sort of hit upon a vague, new, theory I'm developing for "time travel". More as a laugh, because it's so dangerous it could f**k up the universe if I really tried it... maybe I will one day, that'll be fun...

But, damn, is it a lot of work!! If you've never tried theory work; don't. It means a lot of all-nighters, sitting at a table surrounded by computers and papers, with a glass of scotch and coke, the ice-cubes long since melted...

Still, it's fun when you reach a conclusion! FTL is much easier than "time travel"...
I mean, with time, I've figured how to "displace" yourself and travel forward rapidly, a first-step, but FTL I've got rudimentary designs for a "gate", of sorts, that has a sort of "atomic jump" mechanism of transportation...
Think skipping rocks over a pond, except more sub-atomic particles in a quantum sense... S-FTL is easier, still. It's just basic mathematics; acceleration, force over hull, etc., etc. to determine the energy requirements to maintain kinetic stability of hull-structure at 100% all-round.

Wow, I have complicated hobbies... not to mention viral research, genetic research, etc.
Damn, you should try being an independent scientist! Ah, true scientific freedom! No corporate or industrial requirements!

Have fun with that.

Being a freelance anything would be better than having superiors any day. Hope your gate works better than Dr. Weir's...

Fnord
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15 Aug 2008, 12:14 pm

greenblue wrote:

... Hawking later stated the possibility of our universe being part of a multiverse, in this case, causality wouldn't be an issue.

Never confuse 'possibility' with 'actuality'. Merely stating that something may be possible does not make it real.

greenblue wrote:

On the other hand, one could argue that centuries ago, people and scientists would not believe that one day humankind could go to the moon ...

In Edmond Rostand's verse drama "Cyrano de Bergerac" (1897), he produced two posthumously published accounts of Bergerac's fantastic voyages, VOYAGE DANS LA LUNE ("Trip To The Moon" - 1657) and L'HISTOIRE DES ÉTATS ET EMPIRES DU SOLEIL ("History Of States And Empires Of The Sun" - 1662). According to Sir Arthur C. Clarke in his book ""Greetings, Carbon-Based Bipeds," Cyrano must be credited both for first applying the rocket to space travel and, for inventing the ramjet. Cyrano wrote:

Quote:

"I foresaw very well, that the vacuity that would happen in the icosahedron, by reason of the sunbeams, united by the concave glasses, would, to fill up the space, attract a great abundance of air, whereby my box would be carried up; and that proportionable as I mounted, the rushing wind that should force it through the hole, could not rise to the roof, but that furiously penetrating the machine, it must needs force it upon high."

So, you see that at least 350 years ago, the concept of travel to the moon was already around. Also, it was religious superstition, and not scientific reasoning that said it was impossible.

In the case of retrograde time travel, science says that it's impossible; although there are some who propose devices that require manipulating singularities that are many times more massive than the entire galaxy. Unfortunately, one may as well try to prove the existence of God or Cosmic Super Strings, since without evidence, there can be no proof.

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15 Aug 2008, 12:16 pm

Ishmael wrote:

I mean, with time, I've figured how to "displace" yourself and travel forward rapidly, a first-step, but FTL I've got rudimentary designs for a "gate", of sorts, that has a sort of "atomic jump" mechanism of transportation...

Evidence, Please?

slowmutant
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15 Aug 2008, 12:54 pm

pat666rick wrote:

Time traveling isn't in the bible so therefore it's blasphemy. It's for sinners IMO. Same as computers, but I still use them. I sort of regret using any high-technology.

Are you serious? If technology bothers you so much why are you on an Internet forum?

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15 Aug 2008, 1:16 pm

slowmutant wrote:

pat666rick wrote:

Time traveling isn't in the bible so therefore it's blasphemy. It's for sinners IMO. Same as computers, but I still use them. I sort of regret using any high-technology.

Are you serious? If technology bothers you so much why are you on an Internet forum?

Have you ever heard of the word "Pharisee"?

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15 Aug 2008, 1:21 pm

Fnord wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

pat666rick wrote:

Time traveling isn't in the bible so therefore it's blasphemy. It's for sinners IMO. Same as computers, but I still use them. I sort of regret using any high-technology.

Are you serious? If technology bothers you so much why are you on an Internet forum?

Have you ever heard of the word "Pharisee"?

Yes, actualy. Who is the Pharisee in this case?

twoshots
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15 Aug 2008, 2:00 pm

Fnord wrote:

In the case of retrograde time travel, science says that it's impossible; although there are some who propose devices that require manipulating singularities that are many times more massive than the entire galaxy. Unfortunately, one may as well try to prove the existence of God or Cosmic Super Strings, since without evidence, there can be no proof.

I'm not exactly sure I see how "science says that it's impossible"; many solutions in GR exist that allow for CTCs, and the physical possibility of these solutions is open until someone actually gets a real theory of quantum gravity off the ground. Causality only really comes into play if violating it allows for paradoxes, but it *may* not be the case that you even can have inconsistent actions (e.g. the Nobikov Self Consistency Conjecture). i.e.

Quote:

The only type of causality violation that the authors would find unacceptable is that embodied in the science-fiction concept of going backward in time and killing one's younger self ("changing the past"). Some years ago one of us (Novikov10) briefly considered the possibility that CTC's might exist and argued that they cannot entail this type of causality violation: Events on a CTC are already guaranteed to be self-consistent, Novikov argued; they influence each other around a closed curve in a self-adjusted, cyclical, self-consistent way. The other authors recently have arrived at the same viewpoint.

Cauchy problem in spacetimes with closed timelike curves

Friedman, John and Morris, Michael S. and Novikov, Igor D. and Echeverria, Fernando and Klinkhammer, Gunnar and Thorne, Kip S. and Yurtsever, Ulvi (1990) Cauchy problem in spacetimes with closed timelike curves. Physical Review D, 42 (6). pp. 1915-1930.

Considering the current state of refutations of the existence of spacetimes with CTCs, the problem isn't resolved *yet*; not that I'm arguing it will be resolved in favor of time travel, I think that saying science says it's impossible is giving the negative position unnecessary credence. Resolving GR's CTCs seems to be necessary before you can declare time travel completely dead, given that it is about the best picture we have of the way time works at the present moment.

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Followthereaper90
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15 Aug 2008, 2:08 pm

100 years ago there werent any tv,s etc who knows what we can have in future or if u disagree whith me we can always get gordon freeman do it and (hopefully) fail

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iamnotaparakeet
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15 Aug 2008, 2:13 pm

Anyway, what do ye think of Callinicus being a time traveler? Or do you think that Greek Fire, which I'm going to be testing a hypothesis as to its composition, I believe consisted of naphtha (petroleum distillate aka "mineral spirits"), egg yolks as an emulsifying agent (that is my contribution, which I'll explain later), and some finely powdered ionic compounds which reacted with water, was invented at this time by people in the "dark ages"?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aph-3zEacuw[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwY7DCWRzRY[/youtube]

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15 Aug 2008, 2:18 pm

twoshots wrote:

I'm not exactly sure I see how "science says that it's impossible"; many solutions in GR exist that allow for CTCs, and the physical possibility of these solutions is open until someone actually gets a real theory of quantum gravity off the ground. Causality only really comes into play if violating it allows for paradoxes, but it *may* not be the case that you even can have inconsistent actions (e.g. the Nobikov Self Consistency Conjecture).

Then I'll put it another way:

Science is not providing any real, physical evidence of retrograde time travel, and instead offers only a collection of ideas based upon conjecture and subjective interpretations - much like any anthology of science-fiction and fantasy stories, only the scientists don't go so far as to to develop a plot around the actions of fictional characters (except for the 'Grandfather Paradox' of course), and have it published by Baen Books.

I'll believe the retrograde time travel is possible only when I am delivered to the past to witness an historical event first-hand.

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15 Aug 2008, 2:25 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

"Greek fire was a burning-liquid weapon used by the Byzantine Empire (330 CE to 1453 CE). The Byzantines typically used it in naval battles to great effect as it could continue burning even on water. It was largely responsible for many Byzantine military victories, and partly the reason for the Byzantine Empire surviving as long as it did. Medieval sources mention weapons sometimes referred to as "Greek fire" as being also used by Arabs, Chinese, and Mongols; however, these were most likely another incendiary weapon of a different composition and not Greek fire based on the original formula, which was a highly protected secret of the Byzantine Empire and not even discovered by the Latin Empire or the Ottoman Empire. Whilst the real formula is not known, some of the ingredients may have included naphtha, quicklime, sulfur, and niter."

Callinicus as a time traveller, in a science-fiction or fantasy story, may work as long as the story does not get bogged down in plot devices and data dumpage.

Experimenting to make "Greek Fire"? Better not let law enforcement know about it.

As for the concept of the flame-thrower, you gotta admit that somewhere, someone had to have thought "I'd really like to set those people on fire, but I'm too far away..."

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15 Aug 2008, 2:27 pm

Fnord wrote:

I'll believe the retrograde time travel is possible only when I am delivered to the past to witness an historical event first-hand.

Would you only believe cyanide is lethal to humans only if you test it yourself?

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15 Aug 2008, 2:34 pm

Fnord wrote:

Experimenting to make "Greek Fire"? Better not let law enforcement know about it.

Not Greek fire itself, just the base. Naphtha is made up of purely covalent hydrocarbons. I've read some etymological data that suggests that egg yolks may have been used as an emulsifying agent to hold the ionic compounds in the mixture. It worked when I tested it on olive oil, now I'm just going to mix it with naphtha to see if it will also combine as the olive oil did. I don't have the salt-peter nor the sulfur, so I'll be using baking soda instead. It's not actual Greek Fire.

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