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aussiebloke
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20 Apr 2011, 6:18 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:
Psychopompos wrote:
aussiebloke wrote:
Well if your aspie and "love" animals and your not vegan your a disgusting hypocrite. Specisim is not something l'll never ever understand, I guess all animals are equal though some animals are more equal than others right ?


I agree but... making a difference between animals and plants is a kind of specisim, isn't it ? You'd better choose the other alternative (not being disgusted to eat everything which comes from living being, including eggs, fruits, cat / rabbit / lizard / human meat).


Let each draw their own lines in the sand, they are all personal and basically arbitrary.

Things eat things, ecosystems are a delicate and ever swaying shift in these balances as energy is changed from one form to another by organisms consuming each other, that my friends is life and death and the whole damned game
.
I say go the lovely vegans they are not all high and mighty and judgmental, many are intelligent, sensitive individuals and quite accepting of peoples right to choose, however they may get frustrated from time to time by the hostility of those who feel uncomfortable by the vegan rejection of something they still embrace - this is common in many areas of life.

Back when I was involved in the CND there was an old airforce chap in my group, he served in WWII bombing Germany, flying as crew in Lancasters, he was one of the first kiwi's in J-Force to see ground zero in Hiroshima or Nagasaki I cannot recall which. He was still an active member in the RSA [Returned Services Association]. One day prior to a group meeting he was distracted and upset, I liked the guy a lot and asked him what was up [a rare case of empathy on my part which just shows how obvious his upset was]. His reply was that the guys at the RSA had been on his case and abusing him as a commie etc for taking a stand against nuclear weapons. I asked why he persisted in mixing with them, his reply was that they had a common bond, they had shared in different ways the same terrible experience with the exception of what he saw in Japan.
He excused them their ignorant and agressive hostility to his CND activities on the premise that they had invested so much of themselves in something so terrible that in order to make peace with them selves and get on with their lives they had had to justify it and to some extent make war good, this nessecitated being hostile to 'pinko peaceniks', they pressumed guilt about and hostility towards what they had done on his part.
He was a very wise man, a caring and intelligent individual who turned me onto something I have seen a lot of in life.

Read back over this thread, there has been way more superciliousness and open hostility on the part of the omnivores than on the part of any of the vegetarians or vegans - get over it folks we choose what we choose, if for ethical or environmental reasons this makes lots of sense and makes you uncomfortable then that is your sh#t not ours.

peace j



Well plants need to be eaten for survival , animals do not, Or am I mistaken ?

If you had to chose between poking a a burnt stick at potato eye or Babe the pigs eye which one would you chose.

Do the least harm possible I say.

The meat eaters that defend their coice on "environmental" grounds are a riot can they not come to the conclusion that the high prices of meat is in fact related to the fact it's more energy intensive DUH

Though I'm willing to concede their are marginal areas where it's in fact preferable to rear native animals.

I don't have a problem with meat eaters though they can be just as condescending (i'd say more so ) and holier than though than vegans just watch one of these "cooking reality programs" if in doubt.....


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Vexcalibur
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20 Apr 2011, 7:12 pm

Quote:
Well plants need to be eaten for survival , animals do not, Or am I mistaken ?

That's a rationalization.

You'll cause harm regardless. Thinking that eating plants somehow makes less harm is something that comes out of thin air.


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20 Apr 2011, 8:34 pm

Yes factory farming of animals is terrible for the environment. But so is the way we grow, harvest, process, package and transport crops. I get my meat from the same state I live. Most of the produce that's available where I live is shipped in from out-of-state, out-of-country, even out-of-hemisphere. I love oranges, but for about 5 months of the year, Ii can't eat them because I refuse to buy oranges shipped to the US from New Zealand. The whole locavore thing is great, but what if you live where you cannot get another locally grown produce to sustain a healthy vegan diet? Areas in developed countries that have problems with food availability--called food deserts--is more common than most people know, and people who live in large metro areas cannot expect the local farmers market to feed them and their millions of neighbors. Shipping food has a massive environmental impact, regardless if it's meat or tofu that's being shipped. We need to address ALL factors of the problem with our food supply and its environmental impact, not cherry pick the ones we want to be the most evil.

Anyhow, I have a broad spectrum allergy to vegetable protein. Soy and corn are the worst. There's no way I can go vegan without depriving myself of the protein my body needs.

Add to that I need to be a low carb, high protein diet for my PCOS and insulin resistance. Most grains make my insulin levels impossible to manage. I can tolerate small amount of quinoa, oats and wheat. But I can't tolerant enough grains to get enough calories. So I need meat just to get enough calories.

Lastly, food is cultural. We need to address environmental issues with our food supply that is respectful to food's role in human culture. I do not think many vegans are very respectful to cultural significance of food. This is why veganism often doesn't go over so well in a New York deli, or a Chicago pizzeria, or a Louisiana seafood shack. If you don't respect the culture, you don't respect the people. And if you don't respect the people, they have no reason to listen to anything you say.

I also do not think eating meat is a moral issue. It's a biological one. And we have evolved as omnivores. Our bodies and brains were shaped by eating highly digestible protein that comes from meat. That you can make an argument for not eating meat is because your ancestors ate meat for thousands of generations, enabling us to develop brains capable of such higher critical thought. Gotta love that irony! Also, do you like the way a woman's or man's torso looks? Thank meat consumption. If we were herbivores, we'd be more like gorillas--squat and pot-bellied, so to accommodate a larger GI track to digest harder-to-digest vegetable matter. We just don't have the gut for a totally herbivore diet, frankly, and this is why humans are more likely to have GI trouble relating to the consumption of non-meat foods than to meats. Yeah we need fiber, but compared to our herbivore primate relatives like chimps or gibbons, we actually need comparatively little fiber.

I do advocate more more environmentally responsible meat (and crop) production, and an overall reduction in meat consumption, but I do not think eliminating meat is either a sound or healthy option for the greater population.



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20 Apr 2011, 8:54 pm

Because, while I am a vegetarian, I do enjoy shooting animals and watching them die horribly in the forest.


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Tomasu
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21 Apr 2011, 3:57 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
Quote:
Well plants need to be eaten for survival , animals do not, Or am I mistaken ?

That's a rationalization.

You'll cause harm regardless. Thinking that eating plants somehow makes less harm is something that comes out of thin air.


^^ Greetings Vexcalibur.

Let us suppose that plants can suffer as much as the friends who eat them.

We have two possibilites, you wish to eat only plants, or you may wish to also eat animals who eat plants. Let us name such animal Herbies for the moment.

Herbies are often bred by humans and eat large amounts of plants - this causes suffering to the plants. Then the Herbies are slaughtered by farmer humans - this causes suffering to the Herbies.

Therefore, there is additional suffering here than if you were only to eat plants.

Indeed, I apologize as this is perhaps a very short argument, but many books explain this in much more detail with efficiency, except not for the suffering part, which may be deduced if you also assume that plants suffer as much as animals (I personally do not believe that plants suffer as much as animals, but even if I do assume this, I find the above argument - I am very sorry if this is incorrect of me). I am very sorry if this is horrible of me.

(I am very sorry Vexcalibur, but you claim that the quoted rationalization comes from thin air, yet you also do not support your own claim that plants suffer equally to animals).

I must say that I am very surprised by many the reactions of many individuals here. Many individuals have referred to veganism/vegetarianism as such terms as a "joke" or claiming that to believe in such matters is ridiculous. Yet their own claims are often quite unusual, with little or no support for their claims. ^^ Indeed, if an individual believes something very strongly, I respect this very much and I am very happy to leave them be if this is what they wish (I am believe that I am not very skilled at arguing) - however I am very surprised by the seemingly very sparse tolerance for the beliefs of others.

(I am very sorry if I am smarmy, Fnord)


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IceKitten
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21 Apr 2011, 7:02 am

Because I have great problems eating variously.
I would love to be a vegan, and I have tried twice, but I sickened.
I'm a vegetarian though.



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21 Apr 2011, 7:30 am

aussiebloke wrote:
Well if your aspie and "love" animals and your not vegan your a disgusting hypocrite. Specisim is not something l'll never ever understand, I guess all animals are equal though some animals are more equal than others right ?

And why wouldn't you go vegan , made with love and care it's tastier and more healthier than almost any omnivorous foods that are available out their. I made some delicious muffins the other day (6 standard muffins) I now know how to make them correctly :D now you can try these tricks in your baking.

6 muffins :

50 % "OO" flour (with a pinch of bicarb) "oo " is is softer BTW

50 % SR flour

1 ripe banana it add a nice sweet flavour and keeps the muffins nice and moist.

vanilla extract (to taste)

50 % soy milk

50 EV olive oil (much healthier and tastier than tha "vegie" oil that's out their.)

100 grams of 70 % Lindt dark chocolate cut roughly into "chips"

You want the batter to be quite thick .

Cook in really really hot oven 200 C + only for a couple of minutes turn off and leave in oven till it's cools.


Their, moist and delicious muffins. :D

Oh and I use those plastic mould muffin tins I don't use the metal ones they scratch , rust and stick. :twisted:

And why on earth would you want to drink the secretions of another animal eew


I am sorry Aussiebloke, you just proved why i can't realistically be a full veganin Australia. I REFUSE TO USE PALM OIL! I use only local goats and sheeps milk cheeses and purely vegan alternatives for other products.


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21 Apr 2011, 7:34 am

Plus we are gluten, nut and seed free due to anaphalaxis in our house hold. :)


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21 Apr 2011, 8:12 am

RedHanrahan wrote:
Psychopompos wrote:
aussiebloke wrote:
Well if your aspie and "love" animals and your not vegan your a disgusting hypocrite. Specisim is not something l'll never ever understand, I guess all animals are equal though some animals are more equal than others right ?


I agree but... making a difference between animals and plants is a kind of specisim, isn't it ? You'd better choose the other alternative (not being disgusted to eat everything which comes from living being, including eggs, fruits, cat / rabbit / lizard / human meat).


Let each draw their own lines in the sand, they are all personal and basically arbitrary.

Things eat things, ecosystems are a delicate and ever swaying shift in these balances as energy is changed from one form to another by organisms consuming each other, that my friends is life and death and the whole damned game
.
I say go the lovely vegans they are not all high and mighty and judgmental, many are intelligent, sensitive individuals and quite accepting of peoples right to choose, however they may get frustrated from time to time by the hostility of those who feel uncomfortable by the vegan rejection of something they still embrace - this is common in many areas of life.

Back when I was involved in the CND there was an old airforce chap in my group, he served in WWII bombing Germany, flying as crew in Lancasters, he was one of the first kiwi's in J-Force to see ground zero in Hiroshima or Nagasaki I cannot recall which. He was still an active member in the RSA [Returned Services Association]. One day prior to a group meeting he was distracted and upset, I liked the guy a lot and asked him what was up [a rare case of empathy on my part which just shows how obvious his upset was]. His reply was that the guys at the RSA had been on his case and abusing him as a commie etc for taking a stand against nuclear weapons. I asked why he persisted in mixing with them, his reply was that they had a common bond, they had shared in different ways the same terrible experience with the exception of what he saw in Japan.
He excused them their ignorant and agressive hostility to his CND activities on the premise that they had invested so much of themselves in something so terrible that in order to make peace with them selves and get on with their lives they had had to justify it and to some extent make war good, this nessecitated being hostile to 'pinko peaceniks', they pressumed guilt about and hostility towards what they had done on his part.
He was a very wise man, a caring and intelligent individual who turned me onto something I have seen a lot of in life.

Read back over this thread, there has been way more superciliousness and open hostility on the part of the omnivores than on the part of any of the vegetarians or vegans - get over it folks we choose what we choose, if for ethical or environmental reasons this makes lots of sense and makes you uncomfortable then that is your sh#t not ours.

peace j


^^ Woowwww, thank you very much for this very beautiful story, RedHanrahan.


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kx250rider
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21 Apr 2011, 11:34 am

Looks like we have some e-fist pumping going on. Sorry for anything I said to contribute to that, but my viewpoint is firm. I don't recall making radical judgmental observations of anyone who states he/she is a vegan, so I'm at a loss for further comment.

Charles



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21 Apr 2011, 2:06 pm

I would be miserable as a vegan, as I only like a few vegetables and fruits. Not to mention going out to eat would be difficult as most places don't have a vegan option. Basically being a vegan would be equivalent to me being an anorexic, as I would rarely eat. >.<



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22 Apr 2011, 5:34 am

kx250rider wrote:
Looks like we have some e-fist pumping going on. Sorry for anything I said to contribute to that, but my viewpoint is firm. I don't recall making radical judgmental observations of anyone who states he/she is a vegan, so I'm at a loss for further comment.

Charles


^^ Greetings Charles,

May I please ask, what is the meaning of e-fist pumping? I am very sorry if I have been horrible.


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kx250rider
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22 Apr 2011, 10:19 am

Tomasu wrote:
kx250rider wrote:
Looks like we have some e-fist pumping going on. Sorry for anything I said to contribute to that, but my viewpoint is firm. I don't recall making radical judgmental observations of anyone who states he/she is a vegan, so I'm at a loss for further comment.

Charles


^^ Greetings Charles,

May I please ask, what is the meaning of e-fist pumping? I am very sorry if I have been horrible.


Nothing directed at you, or anyone in particular... Just observing the interaction among several of the people posting in this thread, including myself.

"e-fist pumping" = an online "heavy" discussion of opposite opinions, etc... Not quite an e-fight, which would be personal or nasty. I can't remember where I read that term first, and I suppose it's not used too often.

Charles



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22 Apr 2011, 5:28 pm

I think I am protecting the environment by eating meat. I am saving plants by not eating em & by eating cows I am saving the oxygen producing grass from being eaten & I'm stopping the cows from releasing C02.

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22 Apr 2011, 8:33 pm

I'm vegetarian and have been for four years. But milk is so tasty, plus it doesn't kill the animal.
Anything that involves death is not cool in my books.


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