If the universe is infinite, does everything exist?

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Dilbert
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13 Sep 2009, 11:49 am

RichardBB wrote:
Dilbert wrote:
The latest evidence suggests that the space-time is relatively flat and thus infinite, as opposed to being curved in on itself like a soap bubble (which is what we once though it might have looked like).

However the amount of matter in the universe is finite. So no, it isn't true that everything that could exist does exist.


So does that mean if you kept traveling through the universe in a spacecraft, eventually you will get to a bunch of empty space.


Excellent question! The answer is no. The universe is expanding at relativistic speeds, and the expansion is accelerating. We would need to travel faster than light to get ahead, and of course we can't do that.



ZEGH8578
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13 Sep 2009, 12:36 pm

the universe defines existance.

it doesnt have to expand INTO some OTHER space, because our universe IS SPACE.

mindboggling, but not really.
just like there was no time before big bang, so there was no place before it either.

big bang didnt wait before banging, cus it created time and space at the event of the bang :]

as for "everything existing" NO.
for example:

167.8 zegh's where each 11 of them have a purple face, all of them squashed inside a bottle of fanta. <--- this does simply not exist.
anything will not exist just cus you can think of it.


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Erminea
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13 Sep 2009, 2:24 pm

My stance....

I believe there's no beginning and no ending. Neither in time nor space. Mankind has trouble comprehending infinity but I really believe there are no borders, no boundaries and no ending to the universe. It is truly infinite, imo.

Nothing comes from nothing (Parmenides; ex nihilo nihil fit) i.e. not a thing can be created out of nothing. No empirical proof but I have never experienced something that would proof that adage/ that thesis wrong on this Earth.

The big bang, imo, is a revolution that took place in it's process but it was not the beginning of the universe per se. There was something before the event took place.
(- >|< +) I see it as a big change and I believe the universe and all matter in it were there before this big change. (maybe there were more before this big one, how the F are we to know). Yes, sure, things were differently shaped before but I think it was a big transition that changed matter and turned all into other shapes. And yeah, the big bang was quite an abrupt one for sure.

Evolution and revolution. Gradually changing and the more abrupt change but everything changes. It might be hard to tell in one lifetime but it's just an ongoing process.... Panta Rhei (Heraclitus) and yeah I believe, change is the central thing in the universe.

It's such a shame I cannot really express my true thoughts on this. It frustrates the F out of me that I cannot write in my own language here because what we are talking about is something I am really interested in and read and thought about quite a lot.

And mind you, all is perception, thus opinion and what is seen or held as truth is really in the eye of the beholder.



ruveyn
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13 Sep 2009, 3:44 pm

Acacia wrote:
I believe the universe to be a projection of consciousness.
The universe is finite.
Consciousness is not.


Consciousness is produced by an organ that weighs approximately three pounds..

ruveyn



Dilbert
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13 Sep 2009, 4:47 pm

Erminea wrote:
My stance....

I believe...


Stop right there. It is not a question of belief.



Kenjuudo
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13 Sep 2009, 4:51 pm

Because the universe basically defines both time and space, it becomes nonsense to apply them outside of the system.

Therefore the concepts of "before Big Bang" and "outside the universe" becomes imaginary and irrelevant.


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iamnotaparakeet
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13 Sep 2009, 5:04 pm

Dilbert wrote:
RichardBB wrote:
Dilbert wrote:
The latest evidence suggests that the space-time is relatively flat and thus infinite, as opposed to being curved in on itself like a soap bubble (which is what we once though it might have looked like).

However the amount of matter in the universe is finite. So no, it isn't true that everything that could exist does exist.


So does that mean if you kept traveling through the universe in a spacecraft, eventually you will get to a bunch of empty space.


Excellent question! The answer is no. The universe is expanding at relativistic speeds, and the expansion is accelerating. We would need to travel faster than light to get ahead, and of course we can't do that.


Lets assume we could be anywhere we wanted, forget the traveling and travel times. Does the universe have a center of mass?

Forget whether the edge is reachable or not, just does the universe have an edge where matter ends and void begins? Is there a geometric center and a center of mass?



iamnotaparakeet
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13 Sep 2009, 5:12 pm

ruveyn wrote:
[The human brain is] an organ that weighs approximately three pounds..


A gallon of water weighs 8 pounds, so does this mean that a gallon of water is 2.67 times as complex as a human brain?

An elephant's brain weighs about 13 Lbs, so does this mean they are 4.33 times as intelligent as a human?



iamnotaparakeet
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13 Sep 2009, 5:20 pm

Kenjuudo wrote:
Because the universe basically defines both time and space, it becomes nonsense to apply them outside of the system.


While it would be nonsense to apply laws that work within a system to things outside of said system, it is not nonsense to think that there is an outside to the system.



iamnotaparakeet
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13 Sep 2009, 5:23 pm

Dilbert wrote:
Erminea wrote:
My stance....

I believe...


Stop right there. It is not a question of belief.


There is an underlying reality to existence, that I do believe and accept as true, as you appear to also. But there are other philosophies as well which don't accept that presupposition. While I think you are right in this particular matter, not everyone holds the same premises as given.



Dilbert
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13 Sep 2009, 5:27 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Dilbert wrote:
RichardBB wrote:
Dilbert wrote:
The latest evidence suggests that the space-time is relatively flat and thus infinite, as opposed to being curved in on itself like a soap bubble (which is what we once though it might have looked like).

However the amount of matter in the universe is finite. So no, it isn't true that everything that could exist does exist.


So does that mean if you kept traveling through the universe in a spacecraft, eventually you will get to a bunch of empty space.


Excellent question! The answer is no. The universe is expanding at relativistic speeds, and the expansion is accelerating. We would need to travel faster than light to get ahead, and of course we can't do that.


Lets assume we could be anywhere we wanted, forget the traveling and travel times. Does the universe have a center of mass?

Forget whether the edge is reachable or not, just does the universe have an edge where matter ends and void begins? Is there a geometric center and a center of mass?


You can't assume that though, no more than a matematician could build a new theory by assuming that 1+1 aren't equal 2.

If you assume that you can travel at infinite speed and be anywhere at will, then the science breaks down and any further theorizing becomes meaningless.

We can't find the center of the universe, nor its edge, because that would require us to travel faster than the speed of light.

Mapping the CBR is as close as we can get to figuring out the shape of the universe.



DaWalker
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13 Sep 2009, 5:41 pm

If the universe is infinite, does everything exist?

Yes

Nothing does not exist.



iamnotaparakeet
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13 Sep 2009, 6:59 pm

Dilbert wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Dilbert wrote:
RichardBB wrote:
Dilbert wrote:
The latest evidence suggests that the space-time is relatively flat and thus infinite, as opposed to being curved in on itself like a soap bubble (which is what we once though it might have looked like).

However the amount of matter in the universe is finite. So no, it isn't true that everything that could exist does exist.


So does that mean if you kept traveling through the universe in a spacecraft, eventually you will get to a bunch of empty space.


Excellent question! The answer is no. The universe is expanding at relativistic speeds, and the expansion is accelerating. We would need to travel faster than light to get ahead, and of course we can't do that.


Lets assume we could be anywhere we wanted, forget the traveling and travel times. Does the universe have a center of mass?

Forget whether the edge is reachable or not, just does the universe have an edge where matter ends and void begins? Is there a geometric center and a center of mass?


You can't assume that though, no more than a matematician could build a new theory by assuming that 1+1 aren't equal 2.

If you assume that you can travel at infinite speed and be anywhere at will, then the science breaks down and any further theorizing becomes meaningless.

We can't find the center of the universe, nor its edge, because that would require us to travel faster than the speed of light.

Mapping the CBR is as close as we can get to figuring out the shape of the universe.


I take it you've never heard of a Gedanken experiment.



ruveyn
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13 Sep 2009, 7:23 pm

DaWalker wrote:
If the universe is infinite, does everything exist?

Yes

Nothing does not exist.


The contents of the empty set exists. You will not find much in there.

There is no logical necessity that anything logically possible actually exists.

ruveyn



DaWalker
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13 Sep 2009, 7:52 pm

Well ain't that something :lol:



JetLag
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13 Sep 2009, 7:56 pm

I think that since the second law of thermodynamics states each system left to its own devices tends to go from order to disorder, the universe could not have existed in the past. Or, to put it a different way, since the universe is becoming more and more chaotic, it cannot be eternal.

I think that this means that the universe, just like everything else that is made, had to have a beginning; but I don't think it was from the Big Bang, though, because a big bang is just a big explosion and big explosions destroy things, not create them.

But if the time-space universe had a beginning, then I believe that someone or something must have caused - created or made - it. And so I go along with those who believe that the One who created the universe is God.


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