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Vince
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21 Nov 2011, 2:48 pm

Fnord wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Vince wrote:
TeaEarlGreyHot wrote:
Wouldn't that result in more dilution, though?

According to homeopathy, dilution is good. Dilute homeopaths in the population, and they become more effective. By extension of their own dilution-based reasoning.
My head hurts now. I think I'm going to walk away from this one.
That's the point. He's taking the piss out of homeopathy by saying less homeopathy will solve the thing homeopathy solves.

No, the point I'm trying to make is that less homeopathy will solve the things homeopaths claim to solve.
Belief in homeopathy is delusional thinking, since there is no valid empirical evidence that homeopathic treatments cure anything other than dehydration.


The Dilution Delusion.


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anna-banana
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21 Nov 2011, 3:16 pm

:hail: :lol:


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visagrunt
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21 Nov 2011, 6:25 pm

Fnord wrote:
No, the point I'm trying to make is that less homeopathy will solve the things homeopaths claim to solve.

Belief in homeopathy is delusional thinking, since there is no valid empirical evidence that homeopathic treatments cure anything other than dehydration.


You do have to take into account the placebo effect.

For all of our clinical knowledge and experience, physicians do not yet have a solid explanation for the placebo effect. Even when a patient knows that a placebo is being given for symptoms, the placebo effect can still be observed. Not only can it be observed in patients' subjective assessments of their own conditions, it can also be observed in empirical fashion.


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Fnord
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21 Nov 2011, 7:44 pm

Placebo Effect: The engagement and exploitation of a person's imagination in the treatment and cure of an imaginary illness.



cw10
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22 Nov 2011, 12:40 am

naturalplastic wrote:
I dont think the theory works for practitioners of homeopathy- just the remedies they dispense.

But it inspire me to think.

As I understand it- part of theory is conusmng the hair of the dog that bit you.

So...eureka... I just realized how to save the whole human race from AIDS.

Just take one AIDS virus. Chop it up so its harmless. Then toss it into the ocean.

The dead virus will dissolve into the ocean.

Then have everyone on the planet go to the nearest beach and drink a palm full of sea water.

That will make everyone immune to aids, or cure them if they already have it.

Done!


So, you're talking about an aids vaccine?



cw10
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22 Nov 2011, 12:43 am

Fnord wrote:
Placebo Effect: The engagement and exploitation of a person's imagination in the treatment and cure of an imaginary illness.


Except you cannot demonstrate a double blind medical study without a placebo.

Don't even try to refute that.



Fnord
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22 Nov 2011, 11:04 am

cw10 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Placebo Effect: The engagement and exploitation of a person's imagination in the treatment and cure of an imaginary illness.
Except you cannot demonstrate a double blind medical study without a placebo. Don't even try to refute that.

No refutation necessary. Placebo is used in such studies to determine a baseline - a zero reference - at or below which any relief might be attributable to an imaginary affectation on the part of the test subject. Thus, if a proposed medicine does not provide any greater relief of symptoms that Placebo, the proposed medicine is considered useless.

Did you get that?

If a proposed medicine is no better than Placebo, then the proposed medicine is useless.

Therefore, Placebo itself is useless as a treatment or cure.



Indy
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22 Nov 2011, 11:28 am

Please don't get rid of homeopaths. They're good for comedy.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0[/youtube]



visagrunt
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22 Nov 2011, 2:42 pm

Fnord wrote:
Placebo Effect: The engagement and exploitation of a person's imagination in the treatment and cure of an imaginary illness.


Which part of

visagrunt wrote:
Even when a patient knows that a placebo is being given for symptoms, the placebo effect can still be observed. Not only can it be observed in patients' subjective assessments of their own conditions, it can also be observed in empirical fashion.


did you fail to read?

While subjective presentations (such as chronic pain or anxiety presentations) are strong candidates for placebo effect, it also is demonstrable in a wide variety of measurable circumstances. Hypertension, asthma and COPD, ulcer, glandular enlargements, cardiac disorders (including cardiomegaly, heart failure, arhythmia and angina) are just a few of the conditions in which we can observe real and measurable improvements in relation to placebo treatment.

Are placebos good medicine? I don't think that there's one answer. Certainly as a physician I would never prescribe a placebo without the patient's knowledge unless I was engaged in bona fide research with appropriate controls in place. But I will certainly explore placebo treatment with patients where there is good reason for doing so.


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cw10
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22 Nov 2011, 5:07 pm

Fnord wrote:
cw10 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Placebo Effect: The engagement and exploitation of a person's imagination in the treatment and cure of an imaginary illness.
Except you cannot demonstrate a double blind medical study without a placebo. Don't even try to refute that.

No refutation necessary. Placebo is used in such studies to determine a baseline - a zero reference - at or below which any relief might be attributable to an imaginary affectation on the part of the test subject. Thus, if a proposed medicine does not provide any greater relief of symptoms that Placebo, the proposed medicine is considered useless.

Did you get that?

If a proposed medicine is no better than Placebo, then the proposed medicine is useless.

Therefore, Placebo itself is useless as a treatment or cure.


Yeah but you said imaginary illness. Placebos are only prescribed for real illnesses for baseline comparison.