Is it Better to Exist, or Not to Exist?

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ZX_SpectrumDisorder
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03 Mar 2012, 5:22 am

hyperlexian wrote:
i struggled with something similar, MrWizardsMom. i am an atheist and i believe that we cease to exist when we die. eventually i decided that the future isn't real anyways and the past is just a memory, so i try to exist in the current moment. i derive meaning from existing right now, in spite of the past or future.


:)



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03 Mar 2012, 7:52 am

I had the same kinds of thoughts as a child. I was constantly questioning and developing answers to these kinds of questions since about the age your child is. I don't think it matters that we exist. I don't think its important that we do exist. For most of the time that the unverse has existed, humans have not, and I expect that the universe will continue to exist for long after we do. Compared to the infinite amount of time of not experiencing anything before and after my life I do appreciate any time I get to experience anything now. It will take time for him to not be so afraid of existence vs non existence. Maybe mention the fact that while you are alive you can see some of the influences you have on the world and that though they might be small they can have a chain reaction kind of affect so can affect things long after we are here.
:)
Bravo on letting him find his own way



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03 Mar 2012, 7:57 am

MrWizardsMom wrote:
My wonderful 11 year old son with Aspergers is really struggling with some very deep concepts right now. I'm Catholic, and my husband and I are raising our children Catholic. Although we're taking him to church regularly and he's learning about the traditions, we're not forcing anything on him and are letting him find his own way.

He is really questioning his faith, and therefor the existence of heaven. But he gets very upset at the thought that if there is no heaven, we just cease to exist when we die. He keeps asking "if we just cease to exist after our life is over, then what is the point of living?"

I've tried to explain that we live on in our good works and in our children. I've explained that even though he's just a kid, he's already having a positive effect on the world. He just asks "but what's the point if I won't exist to see the effect I've had?" I've tried all kinds of explanations, but nothing makes him feel better. I've even told him that this is nothing to be upset about, because there are no choices to be made. He DOES exist and all of our lives around him are richer because of it.

I remember exercises from my Philosophy 101 class that started with everyone needing to first agree that it is better to exist than not to exist. I don't know how to argue that it is indeed better to exist.

I would really appreciate any help that you can give me. Also, did anyone else experience these kinds of thoughts as a kid?

Thank you so much!


Everyone's overthinking this thread!
If your raising your kid Catholic and he disagrees-
It's paddling time!
If he swears
It's paddling time!
If he mentions sex
It's paddling time
etc


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03 Mar 2012, 9:14 am

I do not believe in cessation of existence, the whole idea is incomprehensible. As for whether it's better to exist or not to exist, well, not existing cannot be comprehended.


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hyperlexian
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03 Mar 2012, 1:14 pm

mds_02 wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i struggled with something similar, MrWizardsMom. i am an atheist and i believe that we cease to exist when we die. eventually i decided that the future isn't real anyways and the past is just a memory, so i try to exist in the current moment. i derive meaning from existing right now, in spite of the past or future.


If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do.

Okay, it's a line from a TV show, but that makes it no less true.

If right now is all we have, then we need to make right now as good as it can be.

that's exactly it! and when i have severe anxiety, it's because i have forgotten that fact. i still do have to think somewhat about cause and effect, otherwise i'd never get anything done for the "future", but those actions are not dots on a timline... more like branches reaching out in many directions.

nat4200 wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i struggled with something similar, MrWizardsMom. i am an atheist and i believe that we cease to exist when we die. eventually i decided that the future isn't real anyways and the past is just a memory, so i try to exist in the current moment. i derive meaning from existing right now, in spite of the past or future.

^ This doesn't sound better to me.

You've partially given up belief in the nature of "reality". Time seems very much like a dimension that we can only travel through in one direction (or at least perceive travelling through in one direction which is likely related to the thermodynamic arrow of time) but in which the future is just as real as the past. While there are concepts one can ponder like what if you were just created 15 seconds ago, but with all the memories of a life before this, etc (ie. one model for how the past might not be real)... But at least for me that would be more disconcerting than a "timeline-ish" concept of the past and future.

i do not feel like i am travelling at all. existence does not have any sort of direction for me. it does create problems, but not the one that you figured.

(and thanks ZX_SpectrumDisorder and Nim)


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03 Mar 2012, 1:18 pm

Interestingly, we who exist have experienced both. After all, before your first memory, there is the time you didn't exist. There's no reason to think after you live will be any different to before you did.

Each person can say for themselves which is better. I don't know which one is. It was easier before existence though, that's for sure.

As for your question, the point, meaning, it's whatever you want to define it as; explain that it's your son's choice in the matter (if you wish to, of course).



ZX_SpectrumDisorder
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03 Mar 2012, 1:24 pm

Don't give way to fear.



MrWizardsMom
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03 Mar 2012, 2:52 pm

Declension wrote:
I went through a similar stage. I got over it when it occurred to me what it would really mean to exist for an infinite amount of time. Infinity is really big. Like, it's really big. Insanity would be the inevitable result, and then after you have gone insane, you would get to spend an infinite amount of time mulling over your insanity.

When you think of it like that, it's pretty clear that it is preferable to exist for a finite amount of time, rather than an infinite amount of time. Those are the only two possible options, after all! We're lucky that we get the better of the two options.


Thank you all for your insights. Declension, your experience seems to really mirror my son's process so far. He started off by struggling with the fact that either option, eternal life or ceasing to exist, were equally horrendous to consider.

I'll share all of your thoughts with him. We've tried to explain all of these concepts to him already, but perhaps your way of saying it will resonate with him. He'll also be glad to hear that he's not the only one to have had these struggles.



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03 Mar 2012, 3:15 pm

Does everything need to have a purpose?

I mean on the other hand what if you were told you did have a purpose assigned to you? You were born to fulfill a certain function that is wanted from you. Wouldn't you feel resentful and confined?

I'd be inclined to say he at least has Free Will and would that be in conflict with being assigned a Purpose for existing.



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03 Mar 2012, 10:44 pm

For me personally, it's better to exist. I'd rather be alive than not to have been brought into the world at all. In this life, I've set out to celebrate my differences and show the world that autism should be celebrated and not eradicated. There are many ways that I do this. Being myself and indulging in my special interests is one such example.


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04 Mar 2012, 12:26 am

there is no thing outside of existence to compare it to, so how can you say one is better than the other? the other is only a concept; there is only the one. there is only existence, so the question, to life, is deeply irrelevant. what is IS, and what you think is is-not is not what you think. whether it is preferable to exist, compared with one's conception of non-existence, is only a matter of opinion. those whose experiences are predominantly undesirable to them and who lack the skill to cope may prefer the idea of no-experience. do what you can to help your son appreciate life as it is, but you cannot prove that he should.



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04 Mar 2012, 12:45 am

My other purpose for existing is to be a nice person and do good things for good people. To help people out and expect nothing in return.


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04 Mar 2012, 1:14 am

MrWizardsMom wrote:
I've tried to explain that we live on in our good works and in our children. I've explained that even though he's just a kid, he's already having a positive effect on the world. He just asks "but what's the point if I won't exist to see the effect I've had?"


This is just my opinion, but I think the above might be the root of the problem. The idea that there's no point in doing something if you don't get to enjoy the credit for it. There is a lot of value in doing a thing well just for the sake of doing that thing well. Including living.

I'm bummed that I won't be around to see what becomes of the human species or the planet or the universe, but that doesn't make me any less proud that I managed to install a light fixture today without electocuting myself. No one was around to witness it, but that doesn't diminish my success. Also, now I can find things in the closet.



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04 Mar 2012, 2:46 am

Quote:
To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover'd country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action. - Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember'd.


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04 Mar 2012, 3:03 am

One can make the argument that it is better to exist because if one does not exist, it is impossible to have the concept of "better".

Life has no inherent purpose or meaning. The only meaning we have in life is that which we cobble together for ourselves. To say that it comes from a supreme being only confuses the issue. The best lives are lived intensely and focused on a personal philosophy that encompasses both individual need and our relationship to others.

If you live your life in such a way that you can die knowing you left the planet just a little bit better than you found it, that is good. If you leave it just a little bit worse, then perhaps it is better if you never existed.


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04 Mar 2012, 5:07 am

MrWizardsMom wrote:
...
He is really questioning his faith, and therefor the existence of heaven. But he gets very upset at the thought that if there is no heaven, we just cease to exist when we die. He keeps asking "if we just cease to exist after our life is over, then what is the point of living?"
...


I would tell him that life is like watching a great movie. One knows that the movie will be over after 90 minutes and won't go on forever, but it is still an enjoyable experience while it lasts.