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How many people are seriously afraid of firearms?

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Are you afraid of firearms?
I'm afraid of people using them wrongly, but am not afraid of their mere form. 40%  40%  [ 20 ]
I'm afraid of the mere form of firearms. 10%  10%  [ 5 ]
I don't have a problem with firearms. 32%  32%  [ 16 ]
Other stance regarding firearms that you may state below if you care to do so. 14%  14%  [ 7 ]
I don't have an opinion, I just want an option to click that says nothing. 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 50

Icyclan
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26 Nov 2011, 10:16 pm

fraac wrote:
In Britain criminals don't have guns unless they absolutely need them, and they very rarely use them. I'm not saying that banning guns would instantly solve the gun violence problem in America, but if you could deflate the gamestate until the police no longer had guns, everyone would be a lot safer.


...Except from that guy who doesn't play by your rules and has a gun anyway. The Swiss are armed to the teeth, yet they don't feel unsafe; nor should they, there's very little crime in Switzerland. Guns aren't the problem.

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein



fraac
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26 Nov 2011, 10:17 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
fraac wrote:
In Britain criminals don't have guns unless they absolutely need them, and they very rarely use them.


Really? I researched this before for another WP thread and this is the most up-to-date information I could find on the subject, and it seems to suggest differently, with multiple sources to support it.


That's some blogger talking rubbish. Besides, if you were safe with guns, imagine how much safer you'd be without them.

The logic is simple. You're a criminal, you want to do some crime. Do you bring a gun? If you shoot someone, why? Problem solved as soon as you put yourself in the other guy's shoes.



fraac
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26 Nov 2011, 10:19 pm

Icyclan wrote:
fraac wrote:
In Britain criminals don't have guns unless they absolutely need them, and they very rarely use them. I'm not saying that banning guns would instantly solve the gun violence problem in America, but if you could deflate the gamestate until the police no longer had guns, everyone would be a lot safer.


...Except from that guy who doesn't play by your rules and has a gun anyway. The Swiss are armed to the teeth, yet they don't feel unsafe; nor should they, there's very little crime in Switzerland. Guns aren't the problem.

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein


The problem is if you're worried someone will shoot you, you shoot them first. Remove the guns and the immediate effect is a lot of people get survivable knife wounds. Parts of Glasgow are very 'violent' but the only murders are of gangsters, everyone else just gets glassed.



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26 Nov 2011, 10:23 pm

fraac wrote:
Asp-Z wrote:
fraac wrote:
In Britain criminals don't have guns unless they absolutely need them, and they very rarely use them.


Really? I researched this before for another WP thread and this is the most up-to-date information I could find on the subject, and it seems to suggest differently, with multiple sources to support it.


That's some blogger talking rubbish. Besides, if you were safe with guns, imagine how much safer you'd be without them.

The logic is simple. You're a criminal, you want to do some crime. Do you bring a gun? If you shoot someone, why? Problem solved as soon as you put yourself in the other guy's shoes.


That blogger backed up what he was saying with multiple studies and statistics, see. So it's got some weight, especially since the latest figures he used were from the EU itself.

If you're a criminal and you want a gun, you'll get a gun. You're a criminal.



Icyclan
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26 Nov 2011, 10:26 pm

fraac wrote:
Icyclan wrote:
fraac wrote:
In Britain criminals don't have guns unless they absolutely need them, and they very rarely use them. I'm not saying that banning guns would instantly solve the gun violence problem in America, but if you could deflate the gamestate until the police no longer had guns, everyone would be a lot safer.


...Except from that guy who doesn't play by your rules and has a gun anyway. The Swiss are armed to the teeth, yet they don't feel unsafe; nor should they, there's very little crime in Switzerland. Guns aren't the problem.

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein


The problem is if you're worried someone will shoot you, you shoot them first. Remove the guns and the immediate effect is a lot of people get survivable knife wounds. Parts of Glasgow are very 'violent' but the only murders are of gangsters, everyone else just gets glassed.


Another immediate effect is that law-abiding citizens get shot by criminals because they are sitting ducks and have nothing to defend themselves with.



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26 Nov 2011, 10:28 pm

Crime stats are incomparable unless you know exactly what they're talking about. There's all kinds of political fudging going on. The fact is in Britain there are very few areas you would feel unsafe walking at night, even in London.

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If you're a criminal and you want a gun, you'll get a gun. You're a criminal.


Why would you want a gun if you have no reason to use it and it doubles your jail time if you get caught? Criminals having guns isn't the problem until people get shot. People get shot because they have guns.

"Another immediate effect is that law-abiding citizens get shot by criminals because they are sitting ducks and have nothing to defend themselves with."

No, this is exactly what doesn't happen. Think about it.



Last edited by fraac on 26 Nov 2011, 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Asp-Z
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26 Nov 2011, 10:31 pm

fraac wrote:
Crime stats are incomparable unless you know exactly what they're talking about. There's all kinds of political fudging going on. The fact is in Britain there are very few areas you would feel unsafe walking at night, even in London.


You're joking, right? I dare you to walk about at night in Peckham or Brixton and see what happens if you get your phone out.

Besides, in the areas I just mentioned, people are shot and stabbed at least once a week. Hell, that even happens in the nicer areas of London.

You clearly have no idea what the UK is really like.

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Why would you want a gun if you have no reason to use it and it doubles your jail time if you get caught? Criminals having guns isn't the problem until people get shot. People get shot because they have guns.


Why do you assume the criminal will care? If you lead a life of crime, you know you'd get put in jail for ages if you're ever caught anyway.



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26 Nov 2011, 10:35 pm

I used to live in Brixton. I felt perfectly safe there.

"Why do you assume the criminal will care? If you lead a life of crime, you know you'd get put in jail for ages if you're ever caught anyway."

You aren't putting yourself into the criminal's shoes. You're a drug dealer, an average criminal. Do you want to go down for murder just for defending yourself?



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26 Nov 2011, 10:38 pm

fraac wrote:
I used to live in Brixton. I felt perfectly safe there.


What part, though? Because some parts are a lot worse than others. There are in fact many streets where people are scared to go at night for fear of being attacked and mugged. It happens all the time in London.

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You aren't putting yourself into the criminal's shoes. You're a drug dealer, an average criminal. Do you want to go down for murder just for defending yourself?


You can get life in prison for dealing anyway.



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26 Nov 2011, 10:44 pm

Okay, you're a junkie and you need money urgently. You're going to rob a shop. Imagine how that plays out differently in Britain versus America. If you bring a gun in the British shop, all you have to do is wave it around, the shopkeep doesn't have his own gun behind the counter. Totally safe crime. How many low level robberies become murders of necessity in America?



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26 Nov 2011, 10:46 pm

fraac wrote:
Okay, you're a junkie and you need money urgently. You're going to rob a shop. Imagine how that plays out differently in Britain versus America. If you bring a gun in the British shop, all you have to do is wave it around, the shopkeep doesn't have his own gun behind the counter. Totally safe crime. How many low level robberies become murders of necessity in America?


That's a crime in both countries, though - even if you're in the US and guns are legal, shooting a shopkeeper to rob him obviously isn't, so either way, you face the same risk.



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26 Nov 2011, 10:50 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
fraac wrote:
Okay, you're a junkie and you need money urgently. You're going to rob a shop. Imagine how that plays out differently in Britain versus America. If you bring a gun in the British shop, all you have to do is wave it around, the shopkeep doesn't have his own gun behind the counter. Totally safe crime. How many low level robberies become murders of necessity in America?


That's a crime in both countries, though - even if you're in the US and guns are legal, shooting a shopkeeper to rob him obviously isn't, so either way, you face the same risk.


I'm talking about the risk of getting killed or murdering someone and going to jail for life. I don't know what you're talking about.



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26 Nov 2011, 10:51 pm

Again, if we're talking about a criminal, I think that risk is the same, especially if you're a desperate junkie anyway.



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26 Nov 2011, 10:52 pm

That's a complete departure from reality and you know it.



Asp-Z
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26 Nov 2011, 10:53 pm

fraac wrote:
That's a complete departure from reality and you know it.


No it isn't. If you're a desperate junkie with a gun, you're likely to shoot someone with it if it helps you get your next fix. Makes sense.



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26 Nov 2011, 10:56 pm

Asp-Z wrote:
fraac wrote:
That's a complete departure from reality and you know it.


No it isn't. If you're a desperate junkie with a gun, you're likely to shoot someone with it if it helps you get your next fix. Makes sense.


YOU are a desperate junkie with a gun. Do you shoot the unarmed British shopkeeper who's busy handing you all his money? Do you shoot the twitchy American shopkeeper you know has a shotgun beneath the counter? Tick tick tick tick... police could be on the way and this guy isn't moving any quicker. You need your fix, man. What's your move?