The Theist Sanctuary

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Not really, most atheist threads will be questions or whatnot, the whole purpose of which is to have a discussion/debate
"Theist" threads that draw controversy are generally homophobic or anti-scientific. Or anti-atheist. The anti-theist sentiment in PPR is intellectual in nature. The anti-atheist sentiment is always personal. I see theists wish us all death and fling insults when all that was asked for was evidence for a claim (not a claim like "I believe in God" but "Evolution is a lie"). The threads of a spiritual nature that do not make bold assertions do not get challenged. One should not make an assertion in the PPR then expect not to get questioned. Everybody who posts there regularly knows this but only the theists whine about their "beliefs being suppressed" *Yawn*. I can assure you non-assertive threads about religion will be untouched

Well, at least a few members take any positive mention of God or Jesus as target for blasting.

I probably don't share the same core as many that profess, only because I have looked harder than most.

Its easy to ignore that kind of silliness. I ignore *a lot* of things there. Having thick skin is important for that section, but I also find that section to be the most intellectually rewarding
I feel often that theists take atheism as a personal insult, and my dealings with a lot of theists in PPR strengthens this feeling

I can see that too. I see atheists just out to attack. I see christ-ies (can't think of a good word for those that profess but don't do it) gleefully telling people they are going to hell. Since hell is not made for man, they lie as well.

Where's that bunny cupped video?

Dear Vigilans, let's just share our beliefs and enjoy each others' company. How do you see yourself, regarding God or religion, or faith? Not what you don't believe, what you do believe. In addition, what a religion or church or sub-group can be criticized for is not necessarily true of each individual who attends that church or mosque or temple.
Likewise, no religion, church, mosque, or temple should be judged by the words or actions of one or a few members.
Specifically, is it fair to use Fred Phelps' group to judge/condemn the millions worldwide who identify themselves as Baptists? Someone mistreated by 'religious' parents were abused by people who used religion as an excuse to abuse children. To be fair, they should be referred to as 'abusers', not 'Christians' (or members of any other faith who justified their own cruelty).
As far as 'beliefs being suppressed', if one is offended by another saying 'You should believe...', the FAIR response is 'I do not choose to believe, and the decision is for me to make.'
The response 'You should NOT believe....' or 'You don't really believe.....', or 'You are a fool for believing....'. is as wrong as the first person's.
Just my opinions...

Sylkat

Wow, surprised to see one of you guys on here. Saint Pius X or just go to Latin Mass?

Anyway, right now, I'm heading into the direction of Orthodox Christianity. I'm not charismated yet, so I'm not technically Orthodox yet, but I hope to get there in time. I've been "Christian" for as long as I can remember, always believed in God since literally for as long as I can remember. I was baptized Catholic for my grandparents, so I guess I'm technically Catholic, haha. But I grew up in a Fundamental Baptist Church, and went to elementary school in their small Christian school. It was a mixed bag, really, the church was incredibly legalistic, I for example, got demerits and stuff for having hair too long, which was something entirely out of my control, as it was my parents who paid for haircuts. The specific rule was like, hair can't touch the ears, finger length above the eyebrow. Yep. Our pastor also had month long sermon series about how the King James Bible was the only translation of the Bible you should use and the rest are demonic ecumenical terrible Bibles. Needless to say, as soon as I could, I stopped going, about 6th grade. From then on, I pretty much never went to church, and sorta was like, agnostic, for all intensive purposes. I went to church at my friend's Lutheran Church, and liked it a lot, but I only got to go a handful of times unfortunately. I did like it, though.

Then, some bad stuff happened in my life, and I decided I needed to get back to church and like, actually be Christian again. So, I started going to Bible studies with my friend from high school, and then eventually back to church. The church was more a charismatic/Pentecostal church, it was nondenominational, but it was more like that. I liked it a lot at first, and made a lot of friends there I guess. But the big problem I had, and this is where my Aspergers came into play, the church seemed entirely about like, social stuff. Not just evangelizing, but like, it seemed like your social extrovertness was equated to your piety there. Like my youth pastor admonished me when I told him for my 21st, I'd just have a drink at home, he said "You should invite a bunch of people from the youth group with you to a bar." Basically, my youth pastor really really picked on me for what I know now is "Aspie"ness and I just couldn't like, "fit in" to the Charismatic thing at all.

So, I was at loss of what to do, and I read a tiny bit about Orthodox Christianity, and first off, theologically it made a bit more sense, but also the people in Orthodox Christianity are a bit easier for me to deal with. Most converts to Orthodoxy are pretty nerdy people, really. Like it's not very "cool." I like that it doesn't try to concern itself with being relevant and "cool" and is just like "this is the way we do things, we've done it this way for a thousand years, we're not gonna change with the culture." But not even that, introversion and related stuff is actually very respected in Orthodoxy, it still has a strong tradition of monasticism, and still has hermits, and there's many saints who were just plain hermits. It appreciates all the types of people, from hermits to Evangelists.

So that's where I'm at, I guess. Anyone who'd like to talk Christian stuff, feel free to PM me or ask me or whatever.

Hello Sylkat!

I enjoy sharing ideas and the company of interesting people, for certain. Regarding God, religion, or faith; I don't really proscribe to any of them. That does not mean, though, that I think people who do are lesser than me. Or that religion hasn't had its usefulness. I think that somebody who has faith in a higher power because it brings them great personal comfort and not fear of punishment is probably just as content with life as I am, and cares for their kin and friends in the same way I do.

I think the best explanation for the universe, everything in it, and life as we know it, is scientific. Likewise if a God presented itself to me I would consider it to have evolved from processes that are universal in space time and thus more of an extraterrestrial/extradimensional/extrauniversal concept. I don't say that God/s definitively do not exist, because I cannot know that for certain, but I do feel they are unnecessary for a working theory of the universe. Considering the amount of people who do believe that a greater being played a part in the beginning of the universe, or some kind of vast, incomprehensible, guiding intelligence (God/s as a "verb") I think that it should be considered alongside other theories for the beginning of it all. That being said, I also think it should receive the same scrutiny without objection or interference. Things like "Intelligent Design" and "Creationism" however, I consider to be harmful in the end. I do not think God and science are incompatible, but I do believe creationism and science are, because creationism is really just politics, not religion, and is basically a farce

You're certainly correct about not generalizing based on the actions of a few individuals. That is definitely the wrong outlook to have and just leads to more problems down the line. A lot of people blame "religion" for a lot of the world's problems. This isn't exactly untrue. My own view though, is that religion is a human construct, and thus any problems caused by it are essentially "human caused". It would be unfair, for example, to blame the entirety of the Catholic church for silencing early scientists and astronomers. Ultimately, in many ways, what that really came down to was the avarice of individuals in positions of power towards those they believed threatened their established system. I very much doubt the Jesus I believe existed (divinity is another question) would have approved of such actions

I feel discouraged that you think that I look down on you. I like you very much. Or that people don't like me or think I'm immoral because I don't believe in God.

The things is I can't believe in God. My brain doesn't work that way. It does not compute. I should be as free to talk about that on here as you should be to talk about your faith.

Yeah!! Why is it that so many theists take atheism as a personal insult? This is why out in the real world I cannot talk about atheism openly with others. Even in a secular place like Quebec. There is a stronger stigma here in some places against atheism than there is against smoking marijuana

Dear 1000Knives, Your post is fascinating! I was amazed by how young you are to have such a varied experience in Christian churches! Personally I've never understood the complete reliance on the King James Version, maybe someone here can explain that viewpoint so I can 'get' it; I also don't know which Orthodox church you are into; Greek?
I am also astonished that a Pentecostal youth pastor encouraged going to a bar! WAY different from my experiences with Pentecostalism! Four Square Gospel and Church of God, to be specific.
I'd love to hear more about contemporary Orthodox Christianity!

Sylkat

I feel the way puddingmouse does, too. Everything she said. I just cannot believe in a god, God, gods... etc. Even when I went to church as a young child it all seemed odd to me. But that's just how I am; I don't usually like talking about religious things because it shouldn't matter all that much to anyone else. (Also, atheists are often more annoying than theists. But that's just my opinion.)
I don't really like the way this thread is going, though, for the theists.

Dear Jmnixon, Puddingmouse (Love that name!), and Vigilans, Perhaps many believers hear or think we hear Madalyn Murray O'Hair-type rants when we read atheistic reasoning or attempts at debates. Perhaps many things said or written regarding people's faiths are not meant as attacks. I for one will make every effort to be polite and if my feelings get hurt, I will try to take a step back and respectfully ask for clarification before responding to perceived condemnation. Emphasis on 'perceived'.
What is that wonderful philosophic statement that was so popular in the 1960's that included the words:
'I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and you are not in this world to live up to mine....?'
If some Autie and Aspie believers of all faiths want to share their beliefs, well, with 63,000 members and countless threads and innumerable posts, I think there's room for us.

Sylkat

Oh, OCA, Orthodox Church of America. Stemmed from Russian, our church's liturgy is entirely in English, but once a month, we do Slavonic hymns just out of recognition for the past, I guess. That, and when we sing "God grant you many years" on people's birthdays, we sing it in Russian, too, and English. So, it's American Orthodox, with Russian roots I guess. Our church is about half and half, half converts and half ethnically (usually Russian) Orthodox people. There's Russian churches in the area, too, we only I think have one Coptic church here, though, we have a few Greek churches, too. There's also the Western Rite, which allows Anglican churches to use most of their same liturgy and service, but be under an Orthodox bishop. Some people like it, some people don't. My church is Eastern, though, the Western Rite is meant to allow people to "ease in" to Orthodoxy, but since I never had experience at a Catholic or Anglican church, they're both just as alien. That, and I don't think there's any Western Rite in my area. As far as OCA goes, same sort of thing. Some people think OCA is too ecumenical and like, "not hardcore enough!!1111" but meh, whatever.

As far as what it's like, well, I'm liking it so far. As far as atmosphere, it's sorta similar to the Lutheran Church I went to in some ways. Lutherans, from what I understand, tend to be one of the few groups who don't have a ton of negative stuff to say about their old church when they convert to Orthodoxy. I've never really been in a Catholic service, though, so I don't know how it compares to that. It's a different experience than my old Charismatic church.

My charismatic church met in a German club, then an office building and had like 100 people come, whereas we got a super awesome fantastic church building with icons and gilded stuff, and even down the street have our own community center, but we only get like 40-50 people showing up on any given Sunday, then for Vespers, on a good day, a dozen. For some of the feasts, I remember I was like the only one to show up who wasn't in the choir. So it's different, I guess. In a lot of ways, I wish we as Orthodox evangelized a bit more, but at the same time, I know now from coming from the Evangelical Charismatic Pentecostal nondenominational background where Evangelism is pretty much thought of as the entirety of Christian existence, I know the other extreme, too. I just hope God helps us in time, but a big Orthodox phrase is "work on your own salvation." And it's true, however, this doesn't mean we don't Evangelize either. I guess finding the balance, you know?

I looked into Catholicism for a while, but my problem was papal authority, and basically the way the Catholic church likes to issue random statements about everything ever. I like the autonomy of Orthodox Churches, too, actually. I think it's good not to just have one "king" over the whole of everything, because then issues can't be dealt with individually. But at the same time, being Orthodox isn't like being Protestant where everyone gets the ability to just make up stuff as it comes, and start a new denomination as they see fit. I mean, Orthodoxy does have it's issues with schisms, but it's still not like the Protestant situation. Theologically, I find the Orthodox views a bit better, especially on salvation. The Orthodox don't quite believe in substitutionary atonement, that and there's just sorta more "room" to think things out, whereas Catholicism is like "because Pope ______ said this, it's so."

Honestly, probably what scared me away from Catholicism quite a bit was, I have a Catholic friend who goes to the same skating rink I go to, and he invited me to a class on prayer, and I thought it'd be like, the rosary, saints, stuff of that nature, and instead it was like, a weird Eastern (as in like, Buddhist, Hindu, etc) meditation thing, that just made me feel REALLY uncomfortable. With stuff like "embrace the femine part of you, now embrace the masculine" and I coulda swore it referred to God as mother, too. My friend who has Catholic family told me of weirder stuff happening at their churches, like one time the story of the Fall of Adam and Eve was the sermon topic, and the priest gave a sermon about how we can all learn from the serpent because he was the only one who didn't blame others for his problems. What???? So like, Catholicism has I think in general a huge identity crisis going on, especially after Vatican II.

Lastly, regarding my old church, I feel like at least with the youth pastor, it got to the point where he was running it like a cult to try to get more members. Other people at my church made that accusation, too. That, and some of the stuff was like classic cult tactics, ie, "lovebombing" was like, the rule at my old church. I was quite relieved at the Orthodox Church that not everyone wanted to be my best friend and include me in various group activities as soon as I walked in the door. I guess churches like my old one have a purpose, are good for some people, and certainly God uses them, but I needed something sustainable, I guess. The race is an endurance race, not a sprint, you know?

Oh well, yeah.

The shift from polytheism to monotheism needed a push.

Religion.. It's a funny one. I was initially put off by being the only infidel in a catholic school. Not allowed to partake in the rituals of eating Jesus etc but still coerced into prayer., though thankfully ma and pa never did any forcing...
I have a lot of issues with belief but to list them here wouldn't fly at all.. But here's a thing: God could exist, or maybe not, but if he is the omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent being that some proclaim; he would surely understand completely my agnosticism, how I can't force a belief etc infinitely better than any mortal. And, I like to think, would stay his wrath despite my folly. Allah Akbar as they say, but ecclesia is fubar.
But then the relativity new "fundamentalist" atheists seem just as sure that nothing will happen to me. Fudo would know but he, I think, would first address my weaknesses. That's another story though.

It's a personal belief that many feel they must protect because of the unknowns in the very nature of faith. I just accept there is a great deal unknown in my understanding, and I like to discuss it to help fill those parts in.