What do you think about Wal-Mart?
China & India where there are no human rights? I think their US sales will
plummet w/i 10 years.
For people who live outside the great lakes, Meijer's is coming. Their stores are as
large as a super center and their prices are as cheap, but the service and cleanliness
are MUCH better
So it isn't Wal-Mart's prices or size that you really care about (since apparently Meijer's has products for just as cheap) but its service and cleanliness?
FYI, low prices are the result of low labor and production costs, not some magic person in the backroom of the company office. And I think the only reason Wal-Mart sales will plummet would be the result of (a) another big box taking its place, in which case the newcomer's prices would have to be equal to or less than Wal-Mart, in which case the foes of Wal-Mart will have a lot of explaining to do if Big Box 2 is somehow OK while Wal-Mart isn't, or (b) the US will make operating a Wal-Mart so cost prohibitive by serious interventionist/protectionist legislation that Wal-Mart will move elsewhere, which leaves America without a Wal-Mart to employ thousands upon thousands of people.
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The blowhards want people to believe wal-mart built a better mousetrap, all they did was find cheaper labor to exploit and k-mart had an older workforce who was getting paid better and many of them got benefits. Wal-mart built their distribution centers in college towns and offered real flexable working hours to college kids who didn't care about full time work or benefits and have the trucks deliver when the labor is available.The kids are happy to be able to earn beer money for unloading trucks.
comrade clinton and the welfare to work forced labor along with the earned income tax credit turned welfare & unemployment offices into slave auctioning blocks. They dragged wanda the welfare queen out of the housing project and stuck her behind a cash register and gave her no choice in the matter ,work woman or no more government aid.
It's not all bad, they don't give a crap about scanning everything and make all sorts of mistakes because they don't care so all sorts of stuff goes out the front door that wasn't paid for. I've saved over $200 in the last few years because of welfare queen cashiers.
hartzofspace
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I still shop there however. Best to go at like...1-4am, it is soooo empty and peaceful.
I totally agree about the bedding and curtains. I've never seen such hideous selections!
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' Wal-Mart will move elsewhere, which leaves America without a Wal-Mart to employ thousands upon thousands of people."
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boy they have you suckered, you just lap up that crap they feed you on TV.
retail jobs aren't created, there is X number of retail jobs, open a new store and someplace else loses business and people lose their jobs.
I just laugh my butt off everytime the boob tube announces a new store opening is going to create 200 new jobs, the new store is just going to steal customers from other places who will either close or need less help.
It's like Toyota created 30,000 new jobs and ford layed off 30,000 people, how many jobs did toyota create, zero. They destroyed 30,000 better paying jobs and replaced them with crap jobs.
the more I read stuff on the intenet and talk to people, the more I think I'm stuck in some bad Twilight Zone Episode. The stuff I read and hear is just unreal. So many people in a total fog and totally brainwashed by the boob tube. A woman from an Iron Curtain country told me the commies never dreamed they could brainwash people as well as people are brainwashed in this country, she just flips out how far out in lala land most americans are.
I still shop there however. Best to go at like...1-4am, it is soooo empty and peaceful.
I totally agree about the bedding and curtains. I've never seen such hideous selections!
This is true. Sometimes you can get lucky and just find some solid colors, but usually walking through their bedding department is a clash of color and pattern.
Don't quite know what you mean by "weird about CDs with explicit music stickers." Does Wal-Mart not sell them, or do they keep them locked up? (Don't really buy explicit lyric music much:) ) But that is also a law, I believe, for music CDs to have stickers on them, and not for R-rated movies.
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TheMachine1
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The debate is pointless for me. I buy but a few things and I usually get them at Walmart because they have the lowwest price in my town. I mean 25% cheaper on
things. I usually only buy food. And walmart is likely selling it at no mark up to get you in the store to buy their Chinese army made products.
Don't quite know what you mean by "weird about CDs with explicit music stickers." Does Wal-Mart not sell them, or do they keep them locked up? (Don't really buy explicit lyric music much:) ) But that is also a law, I believe, for music CDs to have stickers on them, and not for R-rated movies.
They don't sell them. I don't buy CDs and if I did there are plenty of other places to get them so it's not like I care, but it's just strange on their part and doesn't make any sense.
Right, so the fact that there is a Wal-Mart in the process of being built in my city right next to a Target and a Home Depot and three blocks from a Lowes and about five different grocery stores---none of which are hiring---means that all of sudden there will be a labor shortage in my city as the employees of the aforementioned stores all flock to Wal-Mart?
No. What will happen is that Wal-Mart will attract unemployed people from surrounding areas as there is now ANOTHER employer in the area willing to hire someone with a little less experience for a little less money.
And while some people do lose jobs due to increases in productivity, they are free to find a job somewhere else or create their own job or do whatever. There is no decree saying that once you get a job at Wal-Mart you have to stay in the retail sector FOR-EV-ER. It leaves people free to work in other areas.
While increases in productivity, such as those achieved by Wal-Mart, always cause a net gain to the economic system, they also, in many cases, cause a shift in the points of the economic system where human labor is most valuable. Every time some new innovation in technology or organization enables people to produce more with less, the landscape of the market changes. Some jobs disappear, while some jobs come into existence for the first time. When the automobile was invented, it caused a radical increase in productivity for businesses throughout the economic system by allowing almost everything to be transported much more easily. But it did not arrive without causing problems for some people in the short-term. Countless people employed in businesses that depended on the widespread use of horses and buggies were left without a job, but this did not represent any kind of net loss to the economic system. That Americans no longer needed to dedicate a large part of their labor force to producing and maintaining horses and buggies was an advancement, not a setback.
The resources saved by increased productivity were used to build up other industries and create whole new industries. The displaced workers quickly found work in other areas of the economic system where their efforts became more valuable. Some took jobs in the new industries such as producing or maintaining automobiles, some took jobs in already existing industries that were enabled to become larger, and some replaced workers who had moved to the new or larger industries from jobs that were still in demand.
Shifts like these, caused by increases in productivity, do not cause long-term unemployment. As I will explain below, artificial interference with the market causes long-term unemployment. If increases in productivity caused unemployment, the unemployment rate would be increasing all the time. But the unemployment rate in this country is about the same today as it was a hundred years ago. The actual effect of these shifts is a constant repositioning of human effort from less productive points to more productive points, and consequently an overall ability to produce more total wealth per person. It means increasingly more and better products becoming increasingly more affordable to more people, which is nowhere better exemplified than at Wal-Mart.
Just as the Wal-Mart critics cannot comprehend our ability to increase total wealth, they also cannot comprehend our ability to create new forms of employment. When a job becomes obsolete because we have discovered a way to do things more productively, the Wal-Mart critics believe that we have squandered a precious commodity, jobs. They believe that the challenge of economics is not to find a way to produce more wealth, but to make sure that everyone has something to do. All of their endless hand-wringing over Wal-Mart "shipping jobs overseas," and "closing down local businesses" is based on the mistaken belief that when someone loses his job he has forever lost his only possible employment. In reality, a job becoming unnecessary is merely a signal that there are more productive things to do. There is no limit to our need for human labor since there is no limit to our desire for more wealth.
The fact that human beings "always want more," no matter how wealthy they become, is often cited as if it were a sad fact of human nature. But it is this fact that guarantees that we will never run out of employment opportunities. The Wal-Mart critics spend half their time worrying about something that is taken care of automatically by human nature. Worrying about running out of things for the economy to do is like worrying about the sun not coming up tomorrow. The possibilities for new products, businesses and entire industries are infinite. Just as it would have been difficult for someone a hundred years ago to imagine all the things that our economy does today, it is difficult for us to imagine today all the new things that the economy will do in the years to come.
Most people couldn't have predicted the Internet just a few years ago; since then, it has totally reshaped our economy. In addition to the potential of new technologies, there is unlimited potential for employment in the already existing lines of production. Virtually everyone would like to have five to ten times the real income he now has. Almost everyone would like the larger homes, the second and third homes, the swimming pools and tennis courts, the luxury cars, the better wardrobes, the restaurant meals, and the travel that is today enjoyed almost exclusively by the very well-to-do. The production of these goods in the quantities people would like to have of them, using today's methods of production, would require more labor than people are capable of performing. As the productivity of labor rises, more labor is made available to expand the production of what had previously been luxuries. The only thing that prevents us from taking advantage of possibilities like these is the lack of available resources to devote to them. As increases in productivity free up resources, the economy will always expand into new areas.
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TheMachine1
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Thats why our aspie brother invented BitTorrent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bram_Cohen#Other_interests
Don't quite know what you mean by "weird about CDs with explicit music stickers." Does Wal-Mart not sell them, or do they keep them locked up? (Don't really buy explicit lyric music much:) ) But that is also a law, I believe, for music CDs to have stickers on them, and not for R-rated movies.
They don't sell them. I don't buy CDs and if I did there are plenty of other places to get them so it's not like I care, but it's just strange on their part and doesn't make any sense.
Yes, that is strange. I wonder why that is...interesting.
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TheMachine1
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I guess you never buy Chinese made products either? The Americans not making those
products are making zero to keep a low price. No question that protectionism can
boost wages. But prices will skyrocket and the whole economy will slow. The end of day your more screwed.
Last edited by TheMachine1 on 07 Feb 2007, 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Economic Sophism #876457864 (totally made that number up, but not the sophism bit):
A belief that a warm and fuzzy employer will pay his employees more, while a cold-hearted exploiter will pay his employees less. Wal-Mart is an unusually malicious cold-hearted exploiter that gained a large part of its advantage by immorally "squeezing" money out of its employees. This will encourage other companies to start squeezing their employees, and thus an epidemic of meanness to employees and lower wages will occur throughout the economic system.
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But first, some definitions: Income is typically thought of in nominal terms. Nominal income is the quantity of monetary units (e.g., dollars) of income. Real income is the amount of wealth that can be acquired with income; it is the ratio of nominal income to prices. So, for example, if a person makes $50,000 a year and the prices of everything he buys fall by 50%, his nominal income has not changed, but his real income has doubled since he can buy twice as much wealth. If he gets a pay raise from $50,000 to $100,000 and the prices of everything he buys also double, his nominal income has doubled, but his real income has not changed since he can't buy any more wealth.
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An employer is not a caretaker of his employees; he is a purchaser of the services they are selling. Companies do not have arbitrary power over the wages that they pay their workers. Any rational company should want to pay its employees as little as possible to adequately perform the job, and any rational employee should want to be paid as much as possible. If an employer does not offer enough money to a potential employee, the potential employee will choose not to work for him. If an employee insists on more money than the employer can find another qualified worker for, the employer will choose not to hire him. An arrangement that is acceptable to both parties is where they must end up in order for them to agree to work together. The level of pay is determined by all the factors that go into supply and demand, just as with all other goods.
"The fact that human beings 'always want more,' no matter how wealthy they become, is often cited as if it were a sad fact of human nature. But it is this fact that guarantees that we will never run out of employment opportunities."
The economics of selling labor services can be accurately compared with the economics of selling a used car. When selling a used car, the relevant factors in determining market price are the supply of the type of car for sale, and the demand for that type of car. Individuals who are interested in selling their cars wish to receive as much as possible, just as individuals selling their labor services wish to receive as much as possible. At any given point in time there is a certain number of used cars of any specific type available for sale. The supply of that type of car is a given, and the sellers desire to maximize their selling price is a given. So how is the market price determined? It is determined by the competition of buyers for that limited supply of cars. In some circumstances, that competition will be more intense, and in other circumstances it will be less intense. When a person sells his car, he gives it to the party that makes the highest offer, just as people do when selling their labor services. To successfully purchase a car, even though a buyer wants to pay as little as possible, he must bid higher than every other potential buyer of that car. It makes no difference how nice or mean a potential buyer is; his bid is what counts. He must be the highest bidder to acquire the car.
Wal-Mart's critics worrying about Wal-Mart driving wages down, is as preposterous as worrying that some group that buys cars will decide to drive the prices of cars down. Every car buyer would love to drive the prices of cars down, but they can't. If some buyer tried to be mean to sellers of cars by refusing to outbid other potential buyers of those cars, the sellers of those cars would cease selling them to that buyer. The same thing can be said about employers purchasing labor services. They don't pay their employees a certain amount because they're nice or mean. They pay their employees the least they can to outbid competing businesses. If their offer isn't enough, the potential employee is free to try getting a higher offer somewhere else.
Wal-Mart's critics get the economics of the labor market confused when they see examples of Wal-Mart paying employees less than competitors for similar type positions. They mistakenly believe that this proves Wal-Mart has arbitrary power over wages and chooses to pay less. If it is the case that Wal-Mart workers receive lower wages than workers with similar positions at other businesses, it doesn't mean that it is "squeezing" its employees' incomes. A number of market forces can cause this to happen. It can mean that there are too many employed in the industry and that the lower wages are a signal to workers to do something else, or that Wal-Mart has simplified the necessary jobs to run a Wal-Mart store and can use less qualified job applicants. In the case of Wal-Mart, simplified jobs are probably at least partially responsible. As Wal-Mart has advanced technologically and organizationally, on average, its employees' jobs have become less complicated than its competitors. Because less qualified individuals need to accept lower wages to be able to compete with more qualified individuals, Wal-Mart can pay less than competitors if it is able to use less qualified workers.
For example, by using an elaborate computer system integrated with suppliers, Wal-Mart has radically simplified the demands on employees to track and order new inventory. Every time a cashier processes the sale of any product, the exact effect on store inventory is instantly recorded electronically, and a computer program manages reordering. Imagine what it would take to manage inventory in a store like Wal-Mart without the aid of computers. It would no doubt require the efforts of many far more capable people working around the clock. To attract such people it would have to offer much higher wages, but Wal-Mart has made the system ingenious so its employees don't have to be. This is why it's very common to see individuals with modest qualifications working for Wal-Mart, such as teenagers and those with little education or experience. In spite of their modest qualifications, they can still be relied upon to perform the relatively simple jobs that Wal-Mart requires.
This does not represent a driving down of wages, but a driving up of less qualified individuals' ability to accomplish more productive tasks. Wal-Mart's simplification and automation of processes could go so far as to one day eliminate the need for most of the human labor presently employed in Wal-Mart stores. Cashiers will probably be the next position to be completely automated. One day machines may even take over the stocking of inventories. This would be beneficial in the same way that eliminating our need to expend labor on horsewhips and buggies was beneficial. The workers who no longer worked at Wal-Mart would then quickly find more productive things to do and total wealth would thereby increase.
It is a waste of time for the Wal-Mart critics to worry about average wages falling too low. Average nominal wages on an economy-wide basis will always tend towards the level of full employment. If average wages go higher or lower than this point, the market automatically works to bring them back to this level.
"Progressively rising capital accumulation is responsible for our rising levels of productivity and standard of living."
At any given time, there is a certain quantity of total dollars of demand for labor services by all employers in the entire economic system. Average wages at full employment will be at the level of the total amount of monetary demand for labor services divided by the total number of people who choose to sell their labor services. When the average wage rate is forced above the full employment level there is not enough total monetary demand for labor to pay all those who want to work at this higher average. If, for example, in a hypothetical small economy, the total monetary demand for labor is $1 billion, and the total number of workers seeking employment is one million, the average wage must be $1,000 to reach full employment. If the average wage is forced higher than this point — say to $2,000 — then employers could only hire 500,000 workers. Without artificial interference with average wages, such as minimum wage laws or labor union coercion, unemployed workers would outcompete the employed by accepting lower wages. If the average wage was $2,000, an unemployed person could outcompete an employed person by offering his services for $1,500. The next unemployed person could get a job by accepting $1,400. As wages fell, employers could hire more total workers. This would happen throughout the economic system until the average wage rate was back at $1,000, at which point there would be enough total monetary demand to hire all one million workers. Freedom in the labor market is all that is required to reach full employment.
It is in the self-interest of employers to keep wages from falling below the point of full employment because any lower wage would cause a shortage of labor services for employers. The lower average wage would allow employers who couldn't previously obtain employees to be able to afford them. This would leave many employers who were willing and able to pay higher wages without the employees they desired. In response to this imbalance, the employers who needed more labor services, and were willing and able to pay higher wages, would simply offer higher wages and outbid the employers who weren't able to pay the higher wages. This would happen throughout the economic system until the average wage was back up at the point of full employment.
The critics grand idea for fixing the non-existent problem of economy-wide falling wages is essentially the same as that of labor unions, namely, to harass, intimidate, or force companies — in this case Wal-Mart — into handing over higher nominal wages to their employees. Not only is such a practice morally repugnant, it is ineffective as a way to improve the lot of wage earners. Artificial increases of nominal wages cause unemployment, and by attacking the producers, the labor unions and Wal-Mart critics attack the economic system's ability to accumulate capital and produce wealth. They may succeed in getting certain favored groups more wealth in the short-term, but this is at the cost of less wealth for everyone in the long-term.
Wal-Mart's critics are far too focused on nominal wages when they should be focused on production, for it is the capacity of businesses as producers that can make us all richer, and not their capacity as employers. As stated before, there are two parts to real income, nominal wages and prices. Just as Wal-Mart's critics are ignorant of the possibility of creating more total wealth and of the existence of potentially unlimited employment opportunities, they are also ignorant of the fundamental effect of prices on real incomes. The part that they myopically focus on — nominal wages — is the part that it is useless to focus on changing. Prices are the part that can change in a significant way to make us all increasingly richer. While increased production can cause prices of goods to fall, raising everyone's real incomes potentially without limit, it is impossible to make every wage earner wealthier by causing everyone to receive higher nominal wages. Everyone cannot get a raise without an increase in the total quantity of money. But an increase in the total quantity of money does not increase real incomes one bit. No extra wealth has been produced by such an increase. Prices would rise as much as dollar incomes and thus real incomes would be left unchanged. If the critics want to help wage earners, they should find ways to increase production. Probably no company has accomplished this in recent years to a greater degree than Wal-Mart.
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