A critique of feminism.

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That was a joke. Sorry I didn't specifically state that. You just never hear people complain about male ballerinas.

I have to agree with Kitsy on the different definitions of feminism.

Last edited by Aurore on 12 Dec 2007, 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Good point.

You're completely right on that one.

But in the 1960s women were treated like stupid idiots. Feminism was extreme, but it was a response to preexisting conditions. People just went crazy with it.

True Feminism doesn't involve bashing men; it seeks to bring women up to the level of men.

However, very few feminists practice true feminism. They use it as an excuse to be female chauvenist pigs, and look down on men the way men used to look down on women.

Is that what you're getting at?

I see it as kinda like how communist nations don't practice real communism. (Yes, I know that's a stupid analogy.)

Aurore, those kind of feminists, I don't get along with. Here's the hipocrisy I see with the women you've described who are extremists.

In order to be in their club you must:

Have short hair
dress like men
talk like men
be aggressive
wear no makeup
wear their shoes of choice no high heels
no female anything

and do all of this while bashing males.

So basically what those extremists are doing is stripping everything feminine about the female in the name of feminism and it's mostly external qualities in their social platform.


If we look at cultures where women must be covered from head to toe which is what the males want, a female not being covered and wearing makeup is rebellious and disobediant.

Where I draw the line with the words skimpy and fashion is how skimpy clothing is now targetting elementary school girls. Adults, you want to wear what you want? Fine. Elementary school girls? Let kids be kids. There is always a long chain of puppeteers commanding the strings in a series of manipulative marketing strategies.

There have been some excellent points on this thread about how many (not all) feminists have scorned anything feminine. It's curious as to how many women felt that adopting behavior associated with men such as aggression and sexual promiscuity would make them equal to men. In the past feminists complained about women being treated as sex objects. Popular magazines such as Cosmopolitan promote the idea that it is empowering for women to sleep around, get drunk, etc. There was a series of advertisements years ago for Virginia Slims cigarettes. The slogan was "You've come a long way baby." Smoking is a self-destructive behavior, not a tool to acheive equality with men. The ads always showed a very sophisticated woman dressed in strappy high heels and a glamourous cocktail party dress. Once my grandmother commented that she was originally all for feminism because she thought the world would be a better place with women in positions of power. She then went on to say that when many women started doing all of the rotten things a lot of men did such as smoking, swearing, sleeping around etc. she lost a lot of support for feminism.

I think that in terms of how men and women relate to one another, there are some differences that are inherent and not something that can be changed by social engineering. It's important to distinguish between something that is a fact of life that cannot be changed and something that is truly an injustice. It is an injustice that a person cannot vote or open a bank account or obtain an education based on the fact that one is a woman and not a man. The fact that women are designed to carry life is simply a biological reality and not something that a bunch of chauvanistic men got together and decided on. I find it very sad that qualities associated with femininity such as kindness, gentleness, nurturing are no longer valued in American society.

Social engineering cannot alter the fact that youth is very alluring to men because of its correlation with fertility. People can say "Looks don't matter" all they want but the fact of the matter is, when it comes to relationships between men and women that are beyond friendship looks do play a role. It's not something that a person can control; either someone is attracted to someone or they're not. The idea that women should spend their twenties and thirties building a career and wait until they are forty to get married and have kids has been the cause of unhappiness for many women. This would work fine for a man but the shelf life of a woman's fertility is, unfortunately, much shorter. I think the feminists have got it backward. If women were to marry early and have their children in their early twenties then they could be young when their children were older and then pick up a career. There would be a kind of freedom in not having to spend time and energy searching for a mate. Provided a woman could find a decent partner at an early age, this would be far more beneficial than spending years in relationships going nowhere.

Sometimes women dress and act like men because, in the environment that they were raised in, dressing and acting like a woman meant being socially inferior and weak. Even though one intellectually recognizes that the two do not necessarily go hand-in-hand, it can be internalized without being conscious of it. My mother was a good Catholic girl, and was definitely the omega in the family that I grew up in; despite knowing that clothing does not make the person, I never wore a skirt or a dress from the time that I was 15 or so until the time that I was in my late 20s. The change came when I joined a dojo and saw strong, independent older women, many of whom were also not only capable of defending themselves but also quite dangerous, who also wore dresses and skirts. I was amazed the first time I saw one of the black-belt women from my dojo come out of the dressing room in a long, flowy dress, and it was only when I looked at this amazement that I realized how much I had internalized the feminine=weak idea.

These days I paint my fingernails and toenails whenever I want to. Pink.

[quote="autisticstar"]There have been some excellent points on this thread about how many (not all) feminists have scorned anything feminine.

1. It's curious as to how many women felt that adopting behavior associated with men such as aggression and sexual promiscuity would make them equal to men. In the past feminists complained about women being treated as sex objects.

I don't see alot of women who proclaim themselves as feminists who are doing what you claim. Not all females are feminists nor do they understand what feminism once meant. People mimick what they see. This is mass media and it's a game. Who controls the game?

2. Popular magazines such as Cosmopolitan promote the idea that it is empowering for women to sleep around, get drunk, etc. There was a series of advertisements years ago for Virginia Slims cigarettes. The slogan was "You've come a long way baby." Smoking is a self-destructive behavior, not a tool to acheive equality with men. The ads always showed a very sophisticated woman dressed in strappy high heels and a glamourous cocktail party dress. Once my grandmother commented that she was originally all for feminism because she thought the world would be a better place with women in positions of power. She then went on to say that when many women started doing all of the rotten things a lot of men did such as smoking, swearing, sleeping around etc. she lost a lot of support for feminism.

That is an ad. That's what they do. Underneath all of these concerns are ads and mass marketing involved to get females to turn into whatever they want them to be. They target younger females. It's their sick game and everyone is going along with it. Not many are aware of it. They don't care to be.


I think that in terms of how men and women relate to one another, there are some differences that are inherent and not something that can be changed by social engineering. It's important to distinguish between something that is a fact of life that cannot be changed and something that is truly an injustice. It is an injustice that a person cannot vote or open a bank account or obtain an education based on the fact that one is a woman and not a man. The fact that women are designed to carry life is simply a biological reality and not something that a bunch of chauvanistic men got together and decided on.

4. I find it very sad that qualities associated with femininity such as kindness, gentleness, nurturing are no longer valued in American society.


I find that sad too. I find it sad that even with men that are kind, gentle and nurturing, they are pushed down and bullied too. Let's go ahead and put it this way. There are smart feminists, there are dumb feminists, there are females that are not feminists, there are easy to manipulate females, there are those that only say they are feminists when it's cool but if you notice on the air ways, people aren't losing their jobs for bashing women and calling them c*nts even if it is bleeped out.

That's not true when woman first tried to get into the higher paying traditionally male jobs they we're meet with terrible harrasment. They were not respected. The men didn't want the woman to take they're jobs and felt threatened and lashed out at the woman and said they should go back to answering phones and being waitresses. There was a movie about it with Charleze Theron called North Country based on a true story of woman working in coal mines and what they had to put up with.

I do not see that women were treated like stupid idiots in the 1960s. They were the most educated class, in jobs that called for real qualifications , teacher, nurse, they were 99% of that workforce. They do better in school at all ages than men, and more graduate. It is still the case.

Women's Colleges, Teacher Colleges, lead the way in education. There was no equal class of men to school teachers, and they have always been treated with respect.

My great aunts born in 1890 owned a bank. It was not something you could do just because you were a man, you had to not only be educated, but then figure out and keep up with regulations. Loans were not based on gender, but solely on the ability to repay. Their depositers demanded nothing less. Most of the deposits were from women. They live longer, and a man's widow gets it all.

In my Stock Broker training class we were told that more than 60% of the money in the market is women. the rest is corporate, university, so if you want to sell stock, women are the market. She is 59, a widow, and she owns America.

As a class, women have,

Higher Educations,

Most of the money,

they live longer.

They also tend to leave their money to women.

Men have nothing easy. What they gain is by hard work. Many do work themselves into an early grave to provide for their families. They were insured.

Besides the other advantages, women can get a long way on a nice face and body. They tend to marry up in social class based on looks. "Her face is her fortune."

Men think women are cute, women do to, both sexes think men are funny looking, and ridiculaus naked.

So they have another advantage in looks.

There is a presumption of innocence about women, we are now finding is has no basis, but they got away with a lot for a long time. Gender neutral policeing has them as the fastest growing crime sector. The well insured husband who left a grieving, but rich, young widow is being looked at closer now a days.

Many a sweet young thing has married a much older man, like 16 and 70, knowing she will never have a worry, or ever have to work.

The long term results are, women complain there is a shortage of men, in their economic, educational, and social class. It is true. Rich men marry poor women, rich women marry equals. More women hold Degrees, and there are more of them. A woman with a Masters does not want to marry a man with a High School education. Their is a great shortage of men their educational equals.

Women are naturally more social, it has meaning for them. They live upward, and want to mingle with elites. Men would rather go bowling, fishing, or play golf. They cannot go alone, so I have been the date a few times to Symphony, Art Openings, and being in the arts, I was not impressed, but Doctor and Mrs. were there, important people, and that is why she wanted to go. The elite have bad taste in painting.

We did not mingle, get invited to dinner, but we were in the same room. She wanted to be there, to live an illusion. What I did see was "The little black dress." They were babes, single, and must have spent weeks learning to sit in that dress, shortie night gown, low cut, with out showing her underwear. I can see why they go to places where rich older men are, with their wives. It was almost like they had business cards. They might, I am not the mark they were hunting. There were no equal young men.

I have run across many beautiful young women who have a great car, live in a good place, dress well, and go to a better university. Their parents are broke, and they do not work. They do vanish on weekends sometimes. They never say where they went. I figure they cost about $2000 a month to keep. She is most likely on someone's books as a clerk. So she is tax deductable.

They consider themselves Feminist, it is what they are selling. They are smart girls. they trade what they have for what they want. Most want a Degree and a good job. Men pay lawyers, women date one. They do get very close to power, and their girl friends hear about good jobs that are perfect for them.

I call them a skinny butted Sex Goddess, and they want to hear more. They are sex, and it is not just men who hit on them. When everyone wants something, you have to pick your market.

"Sex is something women have and men want."

So they have higher Education, most of the money, they live longer, have good looks, and have all of the sex. I think they have all of the natural advantages, and use them.

So along comes another class of women, and they want to blame this on men. They claim to be Feminists. If they have a Degree it is in Gender Studies. The reality is, there are more women, and most men are not worth knowing. So all of the better men are taken.

Since men are in short supply, the top half of women take all the good ones, and then a bunch of maybes. So half the women are left with the rejects, and there are still not enough to go around.

I do not see how men are the problem, at best we are organ donors in the women's game. They have it all, but we spend money on them, then go to work to support her house, her kids, her lifestyle, and then die leaving it all to her. Few men make it to a level that they can spend $2000 a month to help some poor deserving girl through college. Even the girls complain, and rightly so, there are just not enough yacht owners.

I feel for the rich educated young women who cannot find an equal man. To get the education they had to skip the cat fight over the man supply of the early years, and now with a Law Degree, established, 30, she can find no one. The good ones are near ten years younger, and the few older men are looking for fresh meat. The available men are on parole.

Then there is the single parent trap, "I was on the pill, but it does not always work, you are going to pay for 18 years, so marry me." Most it seems, would pay to not live with her. Born out of wedlock was uncommon in the 60s, times do change. The game worked for a while, but men have become wary of sex that costs $50,000, and if they become unemployed, throws them in jail.

All of this has lead to a rise in gay males. This further reduces the man supply.

That the bottom half of women have complaints is understood. But blaming males is as far from the truth as possible. We are the weaker sex. less born, more die near birth, more at each age through accident, homicide, suicide, war, and we suffer the heart attacks, high blood pressure that ends our short and miserable lives slaving for some woman. I do not see why anyone would want to become equal with us.

This is not a new situation. India and China have long practiced female infantacide, there is no place in life for extra females, except slavery, prostitution, and those positions have their own applicants. The way to increase the value of something is to reduce the supply.

Other cultures have chosen plural marriage. Islam allows three. You can keep as many as you can support, but only stay married to three. Most marry one, but the rest do get married, it is a social duty of those who can afford to give them a respectable place in life.

Mormans, Jews, also had a problem with women marrying outside the faith. Plural marriage was outlawed, so now they are called a friend of the family, but they are not on the streets.

Where women are in short supply, they marry up to a respectable life, and are off the street. In our modern and enlightened system, they are shut out, and left the dregs of men. You are not going to get far with the gay guys, so that leaves a class of men that it would be better if they did not reproduce, with half the women. We have about 15,000,000 who cycle through jail. They do a lot of damage.

In women short cultures they do not reproduce. Here they are given a support base. Fresh out of jail, clean of drugs, well fed, been pumping iron, they are out to make someone a momma, so they have a hideout for their next crime spree. There are a lot of loney women, they do not have a hard time finding one.

Human life is basically female. Males are low quality goods at best. As long as there are excess females we are going to breed down. The last fifty years are a good example. Thug and hooker are the cultural ideals.

Blaming this on the male power structure is a joke, and a sick one. We have no power. It is women who said you cannot smother girl babies, that is horrible, then went for abortion for any reason. It was women who objected to plural marriage, and doomed many a girl to the whorehouse. The results are a major rise in crime, drugs, and a lot of unhappy women.

Feminist want to blame males? How? Women outnumber us, are better educated, much richer, live longer, are cuter, and control sex. We only donate organs and money to their game.

There is no way to produce more males. The only solution is less females.

As they are the ones who have the children, and are free to chose abortion, it is their choice alone.

It is the only way to improve life for all women. If 10% less women than men were born, it would change the world for the better. At least 10% of men should not reproduce. It would improve the quality of life, and the quality of people.

The door to a lot more than equality is open.

These comments are very perceptive and put far better than I ever could have done. I think it's better to have children fairly young too.

Amazingly so.



Inventor--are you ACTUALLY proposing FEMALE INFANTICIDE as the solution?

While we're at it, we should just acknowledge cannibalism as the perfect solution to world hunger, overpopulation, and obesity! (Just eat the big ones, yum.) Not to mention the money we'll save on funerals!

I'm kidding, I'm kidding, and I totally get what you're saying. But men are not the weaker sex--it is silly to say so! Though men die younger etc. they are much stronger in many ways so we even out. Men often physically dominate women while women equally manipulate them in return.

I appreciate your comments regarding polygamy--there are actually huge benefits towards both men and women when it is practiced in a civilized manner. It is when women are seen as commodities that is a problem. There are cultures in which men are seen that way too, which is equally troublesome.

But I've got to say, women were treated badly in the 50's and 60's. Now that there's little discrimination in America (if any), it's easy to forget that, but our culture had molded the image of a woman as someone who could only stay at home and be pretty for their husband. True feminism (and I don't mean the hateful, man-bashing, -let's-eliminate-anything-distinguishing-us-as-feminine feminism) was a response to that.

Though there were definite success stories amongst women, the atmosphere totally sucked for us both socially and intellectually. That's why people got so passionate about it. There were those who went overboard, who gave feminism a terrible name (and still do). They went too far, and began reverse discrimination. We need to stop discrimination on both ends.

As for biological stuff...we've gotta face it, women's bodies are designed for certain things and men's are too. We've got to be able to go about our daily lives without patronizing each other for the type of work we do or our natural inclinations.

The philosophy/practice of feminism can be critiqued as Western society has a heritage of free speech. Any religion, political movement or educational view and various philosophies may be critiqued.

Individuals, human rights, and freedoms we must not take for granted and are never to be violated. This applies also to equality rights, which had their basis in hard won legislation.

Critiquing of an idea is not the same as inciting hatred, or violating the person's or idea's right to exist. With these points in mind, it is important to differentiate between the feminist viewpoint and the feminine person (woman).

The right in our society for men and women to chose an occupation regardless of gender is not to be violated. The opportunity for all is equal. (Individual requirements for the job are to be discussed and compromises are reached on a point-by point basis ideally.)

Many beliefs and philosophies are very controversial, and feminism is no exception. No two persons agree on exactly what feminism means. It is sufficient for me to conclude that though the debate on feminism will continue, the basis for human rights, freedom and equality will remain strong and continue.

You can call it INFANTICIDE, or ABORTION, but whatever works.

It is the Trophy Win of Feminism.

Women ran this country during WWII.

They were forced to marry after the war only because they were pregnant.

They wanted the house in suburbia, the station wagon, and real wages were high enough that an ordinary working stiff guy could pay for a new home, two cars, 2.5 children, and still get a boat, and have a wood shop in the garage.

During the war the Universities were kept full with women. The factories ran with women.

They wanted the suburbian life style, motherhood, and ten years later wanted Miltown. The first trank.

With the husband at work, the kids in school, the work done by the washer and dryer, dish washer, they had all day to sit around, and visit other women for coffee, and complain about what a horror their life was.

Then they discovered life was passing them by, the Soap Oprah said so, all those women were having affair after affair, the real world. They were the twenty-seven year old mom of two, and they hit the streets looking for action. They had to prove they still had it, and have something to talk to the other women about. When their husband came down with Gonnerea, they was no need to explain, he had been faithful.

They tried to explain their needs, then when Adultress did not fit their lifestyle, they Divorced. The husband could pay for it, and quit coming home. For some reason they kept becoming pregnant, and it ruined their hunting. The worst was, ex-husband did not have to pay for it.

His children were just something to get rid of, the era of throw away kids, 18 and on the street. Mom had spent ten years telling them how bad dad was, and they helped her, at eighteen, he never wanted to see them again.

Birth control and abortion were her right, and the worst was she was nearing 40. It was getting harder to keep up her lifestyle, people expected her to go to work. All the good men, now no longer paying child support, who had been working for twenty years, were her age, and had much higher earnings, all had a twenty year old second wife, and an offshore bank account. No matter how hard she tried they ignored her.

She became a Radical Feminist. She also took an entry level job and watched women half her age get promoted. She knew it was Sexism, and they had only been promoted, not for their education, and hard work, but for their cute butt.

She was a leader in Woman's Rights, and the twenty something girls just looked at her like, sure, you'er a winner, grandma. They needed to be reeducated, everyone needed to be reducated!

The children of the era gathered, they were forced by those school laws, and found they had eight parents. Both biological parents had married three times, family reunions were fun, with twenty half siblings. The list of step grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, lead directly to the invention of the personal computer, to keep up with it, and moving far away as possible to try to forget.

Life for the children was trama after trama. No security, ex parents playing them against each other, new step parents, every few years, and new half siblings. They did report the sex was good.

Mom was a pill head, going through a string of men who hit on the kids for sex, and Dad introduced them to their new mother, who was three years older than they were.

They found they were unable to form stable relationships, or trust anyone. All previous generations had married, they did not. They were raised to be experts at marriage and the results. Living together for a year or two was the high point for them, and no one had babies.

When girls got to be thirty, and had had a hunderd men, none of whom they still spoke to, they had babies on their own, and for a while, got child support, till guys wised up, then they had to shop lower down, and admit they did not know who the father was, it could have been any of twenty, but she had sexual freedom, and that meant not asking names. Not like anyone would tell the truth to her.

Born out of wedlock was rare, in the 1950s, it is the majority now.

Such is the Social Progress of Feminsm.

The prenup is a standard contract now. She can take her clothes when she leaves. She has to agree to no-fault divorce, for marriage contracts cannot be made for two or three years. That is a long contract run, for most marriage lasts eighteen months.

The best deal they can get is a two week honeymoon in the Bahamas, without marriage or any further contact.

The children reacted in several ways, Christianity was rediscovered, they changed partners and churchs, it was all the same with a Christian theme.

Psychopaths worked the churches, as did Serial Brides, and the sheep were sheared.

There are more people living alone than ever before, and they do not trust anyone.

Homosexuals thought they found an out, and AIDS ruined that dream.

What was an underclass of disrepute is now the majority, and sets the tone in music and media.

Your daughter wants a Bratz doll, and an MTV hooker outfit, for she is twelve, and wasting good sellable bootie!

Street gangs pay better than a University Degree.

No family structure, no social structure, so the government is free to do as they please, all they have to do is split the male female vote, and they win every time.

The last of the two parent well raised and educated children are no match for the street that prevades the world after they leave home. They go from bright and hopeful to totally depressed very quickly, they were raised in a lie.

A Degree is worthless, High School done over, and advanced Degrees are going to cost you. Education is a business, and it is crooked. They make their's on the Pschology of Gender Studies.

College grads want to start at $43,000 a year, they have a Degree! That will buy a lot in India. They cannot sue you for Gender Discrimination.

No more employees, Contract workers only. With a prenup. They can sue themselves.

Feminism as a political movement, in education, and as a philosophy, has done a lot.

It is the main reason I do business out of the country.