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Dear_one
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16 Jan 2020, 11:22 pm

jimmy m wrote:
Dear_one wrote:
Now, I've been quite patient with you. Please explain the loss of ice.

I have broken this response into a few pieces since I suspect it will not otherwise fit.

Great Ice Ages are rare events over the past 500 million years. Currently the Earth is in the Quaternary Great Ice Age.<snip>

As expected, this is a history of other changes, but without a hint of any explanation for the current melting speed, and lots of lies about observed ice quantities. The glaciers of Glacier National Park are far larger in old postcards, and a shock to people returning with old memories. People in the Himalayas are now diverting their glacial streams twice daily to keep them on the shady side of the gorge to prevent excess melting.
We climate volunteers don't have slick resources provided by the richest companies in history, using the most scientific methods of persuasion outside of the truth. So, I won't post my sources right away, I'll just trickle them in here as I encounter them without wasting time today. I'm really looking forward to the arctic ice satellite data.



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17 Jan 2020, 12:10 am

not expressing any opinions one way or the other, but in terms of gentle expression, "inaccurate data" or even "falsehoods" would sting less, than "lies." :idea:



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17 Jan 2020, 12:35 am

Dear_one wrote:
As expected, this is a history of other changes, but without a hint of any explanation for the current melting speed


Hubert Horace Lamb (22 September 1913 in Bedford – 28 June 1997 in Holt, Norfolk) was an English climatologist who founded the Climatic Research Unit in 1972 in the School of Environmental Sciences at the University of East Anglia. One of his major works was Climate, History and the Modern World (ISBN 0-415-12735-1). Here is a link.

Climate, History and the Modern World

On page 240, he wrote: "And the retreat of the glaciers after about 1925 became rapid. It was almost entirely during the twentieth century warming that the Alpine glaciers disappeared from the valley floors up into the mountains. Similarly great retreats occurred in Scandinavia, Iceland, Greenland, in the Americas and on the high mountains near the equator."

On page 241, he provides two views of the same panorama in the Alps in southwest Switzerland (Val de Bagnes). One from a watercolor of 1820 and the other from a photograph from 1974. This shows the loss of glacier mass, most of which occurred during the first half of the 20th century before CO2 rise. [melting speeds]


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17 Jan 2020, 1:05 am

This video broken into 5 YouTube parts is a little dated, around a decade old, but they provide a good glimpse of my perspective. They compare the warming observed in the first half of the 20 century when CO2 levels were minimal to the last half of the 20 century when CO2 was rising.










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17 Jan 2020, 1:28 am

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There have been a number of scares concerning glaciers over the past few decades

Himalaya Glacier Scare
In the 2007, the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) claimed:

• receding and thinning of Himalayan glaciers can be attributed primarily to the global warming; in addition, high population density near these glaciers and consequent deforestation and land-use changes have adversely affected these glaciers

the total glacial area will likely shrink from the present 500,000 to 100,000 km2(or disappear entirely) by the year 2035

• the 15,000 Himalayan glaciers form a unique reservoir of water which in turn, is the lifeline of millions of people in South Asian countries

• it is likely that glacial melt will turn the big Asian river systems into seasonal rivers and affect economies in the region

This scare caused a massive rebuttal. The scare was not based on peer review or even data. It was based solely on gray literature.

Its has recently emerged that the IPCC statement on Himalayan glaciers, which was based on information from a 2005 report by the World Wildlife Fund, was in turn gleaned from an article that appeared in the popular UK science journal, The New Scientist in June 1999.

In the article, "Flooded Out," Indian glaciologist Syed Hasnain speculates that the Himalayan glaciers could vanish within 40 years as a result of global warming.

A glacier expert interviewed by CNN explained that the data published was flawed.

Michael Zemp from the World Glacier Monitoring Service said: "There are simply no observations available to make these sorts of statements."

Zemp says that the figures quoted in the report are not possible because 500,000 square kilometers is estimated to be the total surface area of all mountain glaciers worldwide.

"The other thing is that the report says the glaciers are receding faster than anywhere else in the world. We simply do not have the glacier change measurements. The Himalayas are among those regions with the fewest available data," Zemp said.

In the end the U.N.'s leading panel on climate change has apologized for misleading data published in a 2007 report that warned Himalayan glaciers could melt by 2035.

Recent studies have shown that 87 percent of Himalayan Glaciers have been stable since 2001. Of the remainder, 18 glaciers were advancing while 248 were retreating. https://www.thegwpf.com/himalayan-glaci ... -discover/


Montana Glacier National Park
The park service were so convinced that the glaciers in the Glacier National Park were in imminent danger that they installed warning signs over a decade ago. The signs said its signature glaciers would be gone by 2020 due to the effects of man-made global warming. Currently the park service is replacing these signs.


North Polar Ice Death Spiral
Almost every year, there has been much excitement in the media about ‘catastrophic’ melting of Arctic sea-ice, run-away melting, tipping points, death spirals and “ice-free” summers.

In the Arctic Ocean, the area covered by sea ice grows and shrinks over the course of the year. Each fall, as less sunlight reaches the Arctic and air temperatures begin to drop, additional sea ice forms. The total area covered by ice increases through the winter, usually reaching its maximum extent in early March. Once spring arrives with more sunlight and higher temperatures, the ice begins to melt back, shrinking to its minimum extent each September.

One of the common theories is that the Arctic will become so ice free that ships will navigate the Northwest Passage soon. But actually ships have been navigating the Northwest Passage for over 100 years. Here is a list: https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpre ... t-passage/

Examining this trend over a longer time window, it should be noted that the Arctic had less ice in the past:
Recent mapping of a number of raised beach ridges on the north coast of Greenland suggests that the ice cover in the Arctic Ocean was greatly reduced some 6000-7000 years ago. The Arctic Ocean may have been periodically ice free. ”The climate in the northern regions has never been milder since the last Ice Age than it was about 6000-7000 years ago. We still don’t know whether the Arctic Ocean was completely ice free, but there was more open water in the area north of Greenland than there is today,” says Astrid Lyså, a geologist and researcher at the Geological Survey of Norway (NGU).
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpre ... years-ago/
This would match up with the warming that occurred during the Holocene Climate Optimum


Image



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17 Jan 2020, 3:11 am

I figure any data contrary imminent climate catastrophe will be dismissed as funded by big oil and compared to tobacco company research. I see "Just like the tobacco companies" as a default response a lot.



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17 Jan 2020, 10:57 am

EzraS wrote:
I figure any data contrary imminent climate catastrophe will be dismissed as funded by big oil and compared to tobacco company research. I see "Just like the tobacco companies" as a default response a lot.


Good Point!

Federal regulations, state laws and University policies recognize that researchers may have financial interests in research sponsors and/or in entities with business interests closely related to their research.

Conflict of Interest Statement: I have never received any funding from big oil. PERIOD ! !! !

I am an Aspie and Aspies are known for a remarkable ability for intense focus is a common trait, becoming an expert in a single object or topic to the exclusion of all others. This happens to be one of my special interest, one of many.


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17 Jan 2020, 2:46 pm

Australia is still burning, but flood is following fire, and the government is finally unable to ignore the climate changing: https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/nationa ... te-debate/ Australian politics are chaotic, but Rupert Murdoch's media have been hammering on denial to stop last year's Prime Minister from preparing for the current disaster. Now, one of the two Murdoch heirs has also broken with the denial camp.



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17 Jan 2020, 8:27 pm

Dear_one wrote:
Australia is still burning, but flood is following fire, and the government is finally unable to ignore the climate changing: https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/nationa ... te-debate/ Australian politics are chaotic, but Rupert Murdoch's media have been hammering on denial to stop last year's Prime Minister from preparing for the current disaster. Now, one of the two Murdoch heirs has also broken with the denial camp.



Firstly,
Let's get the nasty stuff out of the way.

The term "denial/denier" is a pejorative.
If you didn't know,
You know now.
Please stop using it if you don't mean to be insulting.
"Skeptic" is acceptable.

Secondly,
This has been an extremely emotional time in Australia's history.
I'm personally gutted,
But I won't/don't let my emotions over-ride my reason.
Many people don't have this discipline,
Especially those directly affected.

The PM is aware of this understandable emotionalism.
In part, this is influencing political decisions, imo.

Once again,
If you have a problem with CO2 emissions,
Protest against the main culprits.
Not rocket surgery.



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20 Jan 2020, 7:11 pm

The year was 2004 and the Pentagon told the President of the United States:

Climate change over the next 20 years could result in a global catastrophe costing millions of lives in wars and natural disasters..

A secret report, suppressed by US defence chiefs and obtained by The Observer, warns that major European cities will be sunk beneath rising seas as Britain is plunged into a 'Siberian' climate by 2020. Nuclear conflict, mega-droughts, famine and widespread rioting will erupt across the world.

The document predicts that abrupt climate change could bring the planet to the edge of anarchy as countries develop a nuclear threat to defend and secure dwindling food, water and energy supplies. The threat to global stability vastly eclipses that of terrorism, say the few experts privy to its contents.

'Disruption and conflict will be endemic features of life,' concludes the Pentagon analysis. 'Once again, warfare would define human life.'

The findings will prove humiliating to the Bush administration, which has repeatedly denied that climate change even exists. Experts said that they will also make unsettling reading for a President who has insisted national defence is a priority.

The report was commissioned by influential Pentagon defence adviser Andrew Marshall, who has held considerable sway on US military thinking over the past three decades. He was the man behind a sweeping recent review aimed at transforming the American military under Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Climate change 'should be elevated beyond a scientific debate to a US national security concern', say the authors, Peter Schwartz, CIA consultant and former head of planning at Royal Dutch/Shell Group, and Doug Randall of the California-based Global Business Network.

An imminent scenario of catastrophic climate change is 'plausible and would challenge United States national security in ways that should be considered immediately', they conclude. As early as next year widespread flooding by a rise in sea levels will create major upheaval for millions.

Last week the Bush administration came under heavy fire from a large body of respected scientists who claimed that it cherry-picked science to suit its policy agenda and suppressed studies that it did not like. Jeremy Symons, a former whistleblower at the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), said that suppression of the report for four months was a further example of the White House trying to bury the threat of climate change.

Senior climatologists, however, believe that their verdicts could prove the catalyst in forcing Bush to accept climate change as a real and happening phenomenon. They also hope it will convince the United States to sign up to global treaties to reduce the rate of climatic change.

Among those scientists present at the White House talks were Professor John Schellnhuber, former chief environmental adviser to the German government and head of the UK's leading group of climate scientists at the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research. He said that the Pentagon's internal fears should prove the 'tipping point' in persuading Bush to accept climatic change.

Sir John Houghton, former chief executive of the Meteorological Office - and the first senior figure to liken the threat of climate change to that of terrorism - said: 'If the Pentagon is sending out that sort of message, then this is an important document indeed.'

Bob Watson, chief scientist for the World Bank and former chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, added that the Pentagon's dire warnings could no longer be ignored.

'Can Bush ignore the Pentagon? It's going be hard to blow off this sort of document. Its hugely embarrassing. After all, Bush's single highest priority is national defence. The Pentagon is no wacko, liberal group, generally speaking it is conservative. If climate change is a threat to national security and the economy, then he has to act. There are two groups the Bush Administration tend to listen to, the oil lobby and the Pentagon,' added Watson.

'You've got a President who says global warming is a hoax, and across the Potomac river you've got a Pentagon preparing for climate wars. It's pretty scary when Bush starts to ignore his own government on this issue,' said Rob Gueterbock of Greenpeace.

Already, according to Randall and Schwartz, the planet is carrying a higher population than it can sustain. By 2020 'catastrophic' shortages of water and energy supply will become increasingly harder to overcome, plunging the planet into war. They warn that 8,200 years ago climatic conditions brought widespread crop failure, famine, disease and mass migration of populations that could soon be repeated.

Randall told The Observer that the potential ramifications of rapid climate change would create global chaos. 'This is depressing stuff,' he said. 'It is a national security threat that is unique because there is no enemy to point your guns at and we have no control over the threat.'

Randall added that it was already possibly too late to prevent a disaster happening. 'We don't know exactly where we are in the process. It could start tomorrow and we would not know for another five years,' he said.

'The consequences for some nations of the climate change are unbelievable. It seems obvious that cutting the use of fossil fuels would be worthwhile.'

So dramatic are the report's scenarios, Watson said, that they may prove vital in the US elections. Democratic frontrunner John Kerry is known to accept climate change as a real problem. Scientists disillusioned with Bush's stance are threatening to make sure Kerry uses the Pentagon report in his campaign.

The fact that Marshall is behind its scathing findings will aid Kerry's cause. Marshall, 82, is a Pentagon legend who heads a secretive think-tank dedicated to weighing risks to national security called the Office of Net Assessment. Dubbed 'Yoda' by Pentagon insiders who respect his vast experience, he is credited with being behind the Department of Defence's push on ballistic-missile defence.

Symons, who left the EPA in protest at political interference, said that the suppression of the report was a further instance of the White House trying to bury evidence of climate change. 'It is yet another example of why this government should stop burying its head in the sand on this issue.'

Symons said the Bush administration's close links to high-powered energy and oil companies was vital in understanding why climate change was received sceptically in the Oval Office. 'This administration is ignoring the evidence in order to placate a handful of large energy and oil companies,' he added.

Source: Now the Pentagon tells Bush: climate change will destroy us

Not much has changed in predictions of doom and gloom over the last 16 years.


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21 Jan 2020, 4:21 am

jimmy m wrote:
The year was 2004 and the Pentagon told the President of the United States:

Climate change over the next 20 years could result in a global catastrophe costing millions of lives in wars and natural disasters..

A secret report, suppressed by US defence chiefs and obtained by The Observer, warns that major European cities will be sunk beneath rising seas as Britain is plunged into a 'Siberian' climate by 2020. Nuclear conflict, mega-droughts, famine and widespread rioting will erupt across the world.

The document predicts that abrupt climate change could bring the planet to the edge of anarchy as countries develop a nuclear threat to defend and secure dwindling food, water and energy supplies. The threat to global stability vastly eclipses that of terrorism, say the few experts privy to its contents.

'Disruption and conflict will be endemic features of life,' concludes the Pentagon analysis. 'Once again, warfare would define human life.'

The findings will prove humiliating to the Bush administration, which has repeatedly denied that climate change even exists. Experts said that they will also make unsettling reading for a President who has insisted national defence is a priority.

The report was commissioned by influential Pentagon defence adviser Andrew Marshall, who has held considerable sway on US military thinking over the past three decades. He was the man behind a sweeping recent review aimed at transforming the American military under Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

Climate change 'should be elevated beyond a scientific debate to a US national security concern', say the authors, Peter Schwartz, CIA consultant and former head of planning at Royal Dutch/Shell Group, and Doug Randall of the California-based Global Business Network.

An imminent scenario of catastrophic climate change is 'plausible and would challenge United States national security in ways that should be considered immediately', they conclude. As early as next year widespread flooding by a rise in sea levels will create major upheaval for millions.

Last week the Bush administration came under heavy fire from a large body of respected scientists who claimed that it cherry-picked science to suit its policy agenda and suppressed studies that it did not like. Jeremy Symons, a former whistleblower at the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), said that suppression of the report for four months was a further example of the White House trying to bury the threat of climate change.

Senior climatologists, however, believe that their verdicts could prove the catalyst in forcing Bush to accept climate change as a real and happening phenomenon. They also hope it will convince the United States to sign up to global treaties to reduce the rate of climatic change.

Among those scientists present at the White House talks were Professor John Schellnhuber, former chief environmental adviser to the German government and head of the UK's leading group of climate scientists at the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research. He said that the Pentagon's internal fears should prove the 'tipping point' in persuading Bush to accept climatic change.

Sir John Houghton, former chief executive of the Meteorological Office - and the first senior figure to liken the threat of climate change to that of terrorism - said: 'If the Pentagon is sending out that sort of message, then this is an important document indeed.'

Bob Watson, chief scientist for the World Bank and former chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, added that the Pentagon's dire warnings could no longer be ignored.

'Can Bush ignore the Pentagon? It's going be hard to blow off this sort of document. Its hugely embarrassing. After all, Bush's single highest priority is national defence. The Pentagon is no wacko, liberal group, generally speaking it is conservative. If climate change is a threat to national security and the economy, then he has to act. There are two groups the Bush Administration tend to listen to, the oil lobby and the Pentagon,' added Watson.

'You've got a President who says global warming is a hoax, and across the Potomac river you've got a Pentagon preparing for climate wars. It's pretty scary when Bush starts to ignore his own government on this issue,' said Rob Gueterbock of Greenpeace.

Already, according to Randall and Schwartz, the planet is carrying a higher population than it can sustain. By 2020 'catastrophic' shortages of water and energy supply will become increasingly harder to overcome, plunging the planet into war. They warn that 8,200 years ago climatic conditions brought widespread crop failure, famine, disease and mass migration of populations that could soon be repeated.

Randall told The Observer that the potential ramifications of rapid climate change would create global chaos. 'This is depressing stuff,' he said. 'It is a national security threat that is unique because there is no enemy to point your guns at and we have no control over the threat.'

Randall added that it was already possibly too late to prevent a disaster happening. 'We don't know exactly where we are in the process. It could start tomorrow and we would not know for another five years,' he said.

'The consequences for some nations of the climate change are unbelievable. It seems obvious that cutting the use of fossil fuels would be worthwhile.'

So dramatic are the report's scenarios, Watson said, that they may prove vital in the US elections. Democratic frontrunner John Kerry is known to accept climate change as a real problem. Scientists disillusioned with Bush's stance are threatening to make sure Kerry uses the Pentagon report in his campaign.

The fact that Marshall is behind its scathing findings will aid Kerry's cause. Marshall, 82, is a Pentagon legend who heads a secretive think-tank dedicated to weighing risks to national security called the Office of Net Assessment. Dubbed 'Yoda' by Pentagon insiders who respect his vast experience, he is credited with being behind the Department of Defence's push on ballistic-missile defence.

Symons, who left the EPA in protest at political interference, said that the suppression of the report was a further instance of the White House trying to bury evidence of climate change. 'It is yet another example of why this government should stop burying its head in the sand on this issue.'

Symons said the Bush administration's close links to high-powered energy and oil companies was vital in understanding why climate change was received sceptically in the Oval Office. 'This administration is ignoring the evidence in order to placate a handful of large energy and oil companies,' he added.

Source: Now the Pentagon tells Bush: climate change will destroy us

Not much has changed in predictions of doom and gloom over the last 16 years.


Oh my god!
Oh my god!
Oh my god!
Quote:
Already, according to Randall and Schwartz, the planet is carrying a higher population than it can sustain. By 2020 'catastrophic' shortages of water and energy supply will become increasingly harder to overcome, plunging the planet into war. They warn that 8,200 years ago climatic conditions brought widespread crop failure, famine, disease and mass migration of populations that could soon be repeated.


I need to run to the supermarket to get provisions, pronto. 8O :mrgreen:



EzraS
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21 Jan 2020, 5:07 am

Jimmy I have a feeling that I am going to be saying what you are saying when I am your age. Meaning I think this is going to go on forever while going nowhere.



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21 Jan 2020, 7:24 am

EzraS wrote:
Jimmy I have a feeling that I am going to be saying what you are saying when I am your age. Meaning I think this is going to go on forever while going nowhere.


You will be saying it, Ezra. I've said it before that "climate change" is the perfect vehicle for changing (ie controlling) people's behavior (ie controlling people) because it's purposefully nebulous and indefinite.



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23 Jan 2020, 9:10 am

There is something sinister in the stiff mountain air at Davos this year. As ever, the spectacle is almost burlesque in its grotesqueness: the world’s elite has descended on the luxury ski resort in their private jets to discuss global warming over pan-seared Indonesian soy cutlets cooked by a celebrity vegan chef flown in from Canada. But underneath the seedy hypocrisy lingers an even murkier mendacity: an unthinking consensus on how to “save the planet”.

Take the speech by Greta Thunberg, who rattled off Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change figures pertaining to requisite cuts in carbon emissions. “I’ve been repeating these numbers over and over again,” she droned as gormless CEOs and UN apparatchiks blinked at the hoodie-clad managtivist standing before them, grinding on about missed deadlines and squandered targets.

Greta’s bland, corporate-friendly strategy is intriguing; it reinforces her ruse – that the science is mind-numbingly clear, the necessary actions are unquestionable, and that her task is simply to “continue to repeat” it until we are bored.

Naturally, Donald Trump was having none of it. He let rip at this paper-shufflers’ PR stunt, dismissing the “predictions of the apocalypse” and “prophets of doom”. In his own ham-fisted way, the president was groping at – if not quite grasping – the disconcerting truth. Global warming is happening, but the climate science itself is messy, mystifying and ambivalent; the certainty with which eco-warriors present their case is thus disgracefully dishonest.

The causal links made between global warming and the Australian bushfires is one example. Greta has tweeted her despair at the world’s failure “to make the connection between the climate crisis and extreme weather events and nature disasters like the #AustralianFires”. But the inconvenient truth is that scientists have not definitively linked the bushfires to climate change alone. It may be a factor among many. The Australian Academy of Science itself concedes: “Population growth, climate change, temperature extremes, droughts, storms, wind and floods are intersecting in ways that are difficult to untangle.”

The misleading bushfires rhetoric barely scratches the surface of the problems with this consensus. “We know perfectly well” that humans are behind the heating of the planet, Sir David Attenborough proclaimed in a recent BBC interview: this is now a “crisis moment”. But Sir David’s onomatopoeically crumbly prose can’t distract from the shaky foundations of his apocalyptic assertions.

You don’t need to dispute that man is contributing to global warming to question whether it is healthy to talk about the issue with such unwavering certainty, or to ask whether the situation is so urgent as to require the impoverishment of billions to fix it. Scientists have not indisputably proved that other factors are not also contributing. Studies of the heat going into the oceans by dissenters like the Israeli physicist Nir Shaviv, for example, suggest the Sun has a large effect on climate change. Eco-catastrophists have not credibly invalidated his findings, published in the prestigious Journal of Geophysical Research.

Such uncertainties matter when people are being asked to make vast sacrifices in the name of reaching net zero carbon. All our efforts may not make a difference anyway. But contrary views are not permitted. Some researchers are chilled by the shift from scientific endeavour based on theory and evidence to reliance on IPCC-endorsed predictive modelling. Here the cult of managerialism and the mania of eco-catastrophism have dangerously intersected – as university bureaucrats push for research projects which pull in mouth-watering computer-based investment.

Like Galileo and Descartes on the eve of the Enlightenment, scholars have found subtle ways to dodge the suspicions of inquisitorial reactionaries. They discreetly publish papers without press releases, or with incongruous “eco-consensus” inserts, even though these often jar with their findings.

When did Western civilisation enter this new Dark Age? The creepy scenes of Greta’s machinic protestations at Davos offer a clue. Managerialism, an ideology that has filled the vacuum created by the collapse of communism and post-Seventies disillusionment with market capitalism, infects every corner of society. The twist is that it relies for its survival on the flagrant denial of the chaotic complexity upon which it feeds. It deems that all problems (like all corporations) share more similarities than differences, and can thus be solved through generic, optimised processes.

Thus activists like Greta reduce climate change to a clearly diagnosed illness that can be treated by meeting precise deadlines, while the rest of us pay the bill. And thus our elites – who share the same arrogant belief that we have all the expertise to address the Earth’s intricacies – cravenly refuse to acknowledge anything that throws into doubt established “facts”. Sadly, until the era of managerialism falls in on itself, we are probably stuck.

Source: Davos Doom-mongers herald a new dark age for climate science


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24 Jan 2020, 11:35 am


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24 Jan 2020, 1:48 pm

jimmy m wrote:
mendacity
gormless
managtivist


I've read dictionaries in 2 languages off and on over many yrs. LOL, you're the first person I've heard/seen use mendacious. My vocab/word knowledge is kinda high but I've never heard the word 'gormless' before, touche! What is a managtivist? 2 words I had never heard of!


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