Which wooden Lilith statue should I consider getting?

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Found an interesting article that explains why the Alphabet of Ben Sira was more than likely anti-Jewish satire written by a disgruntled Jew and it has been taken way too literally by artists and occultists for many centuries.

But fake or not, it certainly gave the Mother of Demons a life of her own.

http://www.lilithgallery.com/library/li ... -Sira.html

I want to someday read the Alphabet of Ben Sira though...

And just because it was satire doesn't mean it can't have some truth to it, right?

The New Testament might have been a piece of Flavian propaganda and Jesus may (likely) have never existed even as a separate issue. Has nothing to do with the power of the church, the number of people who believed the story, nor the power of the egregore built around the church and the number of people who see Jesus during NDE's.

So you're basically saying Jesus most likely never really existed but was given a life of his own through the power of belief?

That's pretty much how I feel about Lilith too. Though unlike many of these New Agers I don't buy into the narrative that she is a benevolent feminist goddess who wants to help oppressed women.

In everything i have read about her role as Adam's first mate it appeared to me that she did NOT feel real sympathy for Eve as a fellow woman. If anything she appeared jealous that Eve took her rightful place in Paradise and basically used what she had as a fellow woman to manipulate Eve's trust into eating the forbidden fruit and bring the fall of man. Which is reminiscent (to me at least) of the kind of women who befriend other women only so they can stab them in the back.

Add to that little detail the fact that she preys on pregnant mothers and girl babies as well as boy babies, I just don't see her being on the side of human women. She might hate human women slightly less than she does men though...

Ok...

I guess I completely misunderstood what you were saying. I apologize for that I was in a crowded living room listening to so much noise while i was trying to respond and you understand how those of with autism are when it comes to big crowds and noise im sure? Makes it harder to concentrate.

Anyways I still see it as possible that Lilith exists in her own way even knowing that much of what we assumed to be true about her for years was not actually true, but she is still a demon or malicious entity in her own right. A very powerful one at that, and the more people feed into her by spreading her deception and trying to elevate her status to that of a great goddess the more dangerous she will become to our world.

She is the very destructive forces of nature itself brought on by climate change, she is the deadly diseases like Black Death, AIDS, and Covid that are carried by her winds to hurt humans everywhere, and it is she who laughs cruely at the strife she causes when men and women as well as different ethnic groups clash violently and angrily because they cannot agree to work together as good humans should to defeat their common enemy.

That is what she means to me. And I fear her as well as I respect her.

No, you did just fine - you got what I was saying about the landed / physical person of Jesus perhaps being less a historical event than some combination imagination and possibly a being already in existence who might have resembled the description on a philosophic level (Logos or whatever else have you).

With Lilith I think there's a question, an answer, and then a couple follow up questions.

First question - does she most likely act like a reflection of the person she's working with?

Answer: Most likely yes, however that's also an act of docking with you (whether a literal goddess or in Jungian terms an 'idea having you') by what resonates with her in your own psyche and then drawing you toward herself as a multidimensional symbol that you explore.

Second Question: With the way you read her as a symbol how close do you want to get without transforming in ways you might not want to and is it worth the risk?

Third Question: If the answer is yes, it seems worth the effort based on the structure of the challenges or needs that her symbols address, how do you think you would best sculpt the relationship and set both positive-sum work as well as your own boundaries?

To those last questions go back to considering her like a symbol or arcanum that unpacks itself as you look at it and could almost do so infinitely in terms of fine detail, and try to think about how you'd answer those last two questions - not to me but in terms of how you'd frame your practice, ie. obviously respectful but with boundaries.

Also if you work with her, you're taking up a relationship. You sort of have to see her then, assuming the relationship holds, as a bit of a 'dangerous teacher' or 'dangerous friend', one who wouldn't destroy you but might really take you for some interesting loops and blow your mind in ways you may or may not have been ready for.

Another wild thing about Catholicism and the Vatican, I was listening to a Catholic exorcist in an interview and he was talking about how after a certain point the exorcisms got more difficult to command through Catholic rites and it seemed to have something to do with the health of the church from the top down.

This is why I'm also not the bit surprised when I talk to some of the Christian relative-fundamentalists I know and they talk about healings they've experienced and seen at church and during prayer circles, it's effectively a conscious vital life force of sorts, the same kind of thing that helps people have rapid healing after NDE's or rapid healings in prayer circles of the kind that their genes can actually generate if given the energy and resources (ie. not missing limbs or things like that). The one thing I'd really love to see, if we ever have mathematical language for it, is how it integrates with reality as we know it.

I basically see her as more a symbol of misanthropy (hatred of mankind) than anything else, especially feminism which seems to be what everyone else views her as being.

I know I rave about hating humans when manic but deep down on a sane level I do recognize that humans are destroying the earth and that humans are crueler towards other humans than any animal or mythical monster we could possibly invent ourself.

It's like to me she represents a warning that if we humans don't do things differently she will come after us, but I just don't believe we ever will do things different. In the past few years thanks to people like Donald Trump and others we have seen our progress get flushed down the toilet and that's all the proof I need that humans really aren't worth trying to save from themselves.

Not sure if that makes sense?



I think it is worth the risk, and in some ways she has already transformed me I think. I may be more cynical nowadays but I feel like my eyes are opened to the truth about humanity and I'm less likely to fall into the traps of group mentality. That said I don't think I would ever cross the line in ways that Lilith has though like the way she murders children. But I also think to myself: how come she is demonized for taking the lives of children so young and yet 'God' aka Yawheh is loved and admired even after he murdered all the first born sons of Egypt? God also told his people to kill every child in Jericho along with the adults and livestock. I don't support killing children either way but it does seem like a gross double standard to me.





Yeah I thought long and hard about this.



Yes she can indeed be dangerous. I feel as though I have been working with her for years without even realizing it at the time. And she has drained me of my mental health and my physical health because that is within her nature. But in a way she is also testing me I think to see how far I am willing to overcome these things I think.

When I did my first read of the bible Numbers, Judges, and Joshua were a lot of fun for that reason. On one level it's not surprising that human beings then had less of a veil of civility on genocidal tendencies and ultimately behavior. Fair to also say as well that most of the old testament was written after the Bronze Age collapse (post 1177 BC) where they were back in a kind of dark age and so it was a dark age atavism to even going as far as 'kill all the men and boys, take all the women'.

On another note with Judges - clearly the '4th turning' (hard times make strong men, strong men make good times, good times make weak men, weak men make hard times) isn't at all a new concept.

Makes me question if Lilith is growing and perhaps trying to lift that same thin veil of civility in our modern times? She wants teh humans to give full force into their brutal destructive instincts which is that part of our own nature that we have tried to suppress for so long for the sake of 'civility'.

And she's not the only powerful force at work here. I think about the effects of Pluto on America's natal chart and that cursed boulder in Japan that sealed the evil spirit of Tamamo-no-Mae and now the rock has mysteriously broken.


So many strange coincidences... But I think Lilith knows humans for what we really are and either wants to see our downfall or at least wants us to give into our own pure brutal unsuppressed instincts.

And one thing people need to realize about her is that she can be a LIAR. I think this accepted new age myth about her being a benevolent pro-feminism goddess is an example of one of her many deceptions as well as her stealing the identity of Inanna from The Burney Relief and allowing an anti-jewish satirical writing like The Alphabet of Ben Sira to influence scholars and artists for centuries. It appears to be in her very nature. Every time scholars and occultists thought they knew her, they found out they were wrong all along despite the fact that she has been around as a myth for thousands of years.

Anyways to me if anything she represents a kind of danger towards the feminist movement itself and I feel like as one of the few who sees through Lilith's deception it should be up to people like me to try and point this out about her, but it feels like a lost cause given the way everyone nowadays lives in their own echo chamber unfortunately.

But I have had a few witches online who weren't swept away by the 'Feminist Lilith' idea warn me about her trickery and malevolence, and this has even come by some of her own dedicated followers who at least know her for what she actually is and not what they wished she was.

Btw speaking of my belief of Lilith and her misguided popularity as a feminist icon, I feel like the most fitting recent comparison of this sort of situation is the trial involving Johnny Depp's girlfriend Amber Heard. She did a lot of damage to the #MeToo movement when she thought she could play the victim and turn everyone against Johnny Depp when she was actually the one in the wrong and the courts even proved this. Of course she still has sympathizers much like Lilith does, but the fact that she was the abusive one trying to play the abused victims should give more feminists reasons to despise her.

I think sometimes it's hard for our society to hold women responsible for their own actions and there are some pretty nasty women in this world who try to take full advantage of this. Like the mean little girl on the playground who picks on a young boy and the young boy doesn't fight back because it's "not acceptable to hit little girls". Lilith would be like the embodiment of such toxic femininity.

Last edited by DeathFlowerKing on 20 Dec 2022, 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

If you ever get to read a 150 page book from 2002 by John Gray called 'Straw Dogs: On Humans and Other Animals', it's worth reading. None of that really ever goes away, it's just that the conveniences we have these days tend to change our frame in terms of what's in our self-interests, which largely domesticates our behavior. When things get hard, like massive economic crashes (particularly if it comes with societal unraveling and loss of convenience), a lot of that more atavistic stuff lights up again.

This is where I don't know what to say about 'Lilith' actively having a plan, I think of Chris Williamson (Modern Wisdom) talking to someone in an interview a year or two ago and talking about our genes as the ultra-duplicitous agents which are so good at both lying to us and convincing us that they're right that it's James Bond level stuff. The idea that the conscious mind is just a press secretary and even PR specialist for the unconscious, where people do absolute awful things to other people but don't find an explanation for that behavior in their own moral compass end up backward rationalizing some justifiable reason when the most obvious reason is why their unconscious / subconscious minds caused them to do it. Like John Gray's story about the Christians who settled Tasmania and the brutalities they inflicted on the natives while going to church twice per week - that conscious / subconscious divide and completely unironic and well-countenanced without question hypocrisy is just part of what we always are in potential.

I don't think this is any special time for Lilith or even our genes to spring a trap, every generation that's ever lived encounters this and has less or more accurate stories to tell about what's happening.



If you interact with her you'll interact through your own adjacent concepts. It's an open question what that will be like.


The trouble with Abrahamic religion is it fundamentally equates the divine with the moral / the good. I think she is divine but also has a very complicated and checkered role in creation. Again - the side of her that you'll see is as far as you yourself can penetrate her as a symbol. Plenty of people will only encounter her supportive and 'teacher' sides because that's all they can access. Other people will have all sorts of previously repressed philias come up. Still other people will be taken on completely other roller-coaster rides.

In this sense gods and goddesses are like colored mirrors and your work with them will be a modification or filtering of your own reflection.

I think there was some type of spot-check on her mental health by a professional and they said she was showing strong symptoms of borderline and histrionic PDs (both cluster B). That contextualizes her behavior, ie. she's not well.


Jordan Peterson actually said something about this when he was talking to Camille Paglia, that men can at least hold each other in check due to the ever-present threat of violence. OTOH with young girls or even women attacking other women or men, unless they end up bothering some Brazillian women's MMA fighter and getting bounced on their head it's much more likely that it's going to be reputational violence anyway, which is difficult to justify physical violence in reaction to for women (even more for men).

On another slight aside - I did learn one interesting and relevant thing from some of the law enforcement guys in my martial arts classes, that spitting on someone is actually assault. I'm really, really glad to hear that because... imagine a world where someone could spit on you and get away with it because if you decked em back you'd go to jail, they'd walk away because it was an 'unprovoked' attack on your part. Disgusting, Machiavellian, manipulative people who are out to defeat or dominate others by any means necessary will take whatever rule sets you give them and abuse those rule sets while adhering to the letter of them as far as they can, and they'll try to bring as many people around them as can or will enable them to abuse the rules. This is where dealing with any type of nasty human behavior is tricky because they'll find loopholes in any rule sets and you have to not go so far in designing those rule sets that they become absurd for everyone else to follow. In that context they may need to identify some other factors, other behaviors similar to spitting, that reliably back other people into a corner even without the standard kinds of physical ignition to call it assault (and maybe these actions wouldn't bear the same penalty as assault but will still be low felony or high misdemeanor).

I believe you are right about the Gods and Goddesses reflecting some aspect of ourselves.

I'll compare Lilith to another female deity known as Inanna who may actually be even be older than Lilith. In my own mirror reflection of gods and goddesses Inanna is what feminism should actually be like, or used to be about. Inanna was a very strong and willful woman, very empowering, not afraid to stand up to her father. She had many lovers and at first it appeared that she genuinely liked them, but once they did something to cross her she could be wrathful. Yet despite her wrath she was also capable of remourse when she took things too far. And even her relationship with her sister Ereshkigal the Goddess of the Underworld says something to me about the real relationships between women. They didn't really trust each other but they still had a familiar bond as sisters and family. It wasn't like when Lilith tricked Eve and ruined her life out of petty anger to use her against Adam. And while Inanna could be impulsive and careless like many young women, she learned from her mistakes and grew to be one of the most powerful and influental goddesses in the world earning herself the title of Queen of Heaven. Through her many myths and legends she grew from an innocent and vulnerable young woman into a mature and confident woman.

And unlike Lilith, Inanna did not appear to be a misandrist. But she also bowed before no man. She lived exactly how she wanted and there was so much to admire about her.

Some days I honestly wonder if Inanna is really who I should try to link with? I could use her confidence and independent spirit.

Lilith has given me too much hate in my heart...

Funny that you mention Amber Heard possibly having a nental illness. You know Lilith herself gets her name from a type of ancient demon or spirit known as the 'lilitu' which are said to spread storms and diseases, and Lilith as well as her predecessor Lamashtu were both blamed for diseases that brought SIDS to infants.

I've heard theories that she is quite possibly linked to the concept of STDs aa well. But i also wonder if she can perhaps be linked to mental illnesses aswell?

Just food for thought.

Ishtar sounds a bit like Inanna as you describer her, both a goddess of love and war and had a way of pulling in male lovers and casting them aside like the way the Dao treats life itself (for whatever occult familiarity Margaret Weis had in writing the Dragonlance books, her handling of Kitiara as a Dragon Highlord mirrored Ishar a lot).

For some reason I end up being actually more intimidated by Aphrodite / Venus than Lilith, and it might be because what you get with Lilith is more straight forward whereas with Aphrodite you may not know what the rules are and if you were going to get dropped on your head it almost seems like you'd be less likely to see it coming.