Do you consider women that used to be men as women?

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I don't find it the least bit stifling to not be assigned a list of socially pre-approved opinions, gestures, interests, and fashion based on nothing but my genitalia.

I'm not saying people should adhere to cis gender roles. But most people do, and if you fail to acknowledge the difference between genders (not in the sense of men and women being inherently different) then things are going to be awkward socially. It's hard to explain. Like, gender is socially constructed, but that doesn't mean that it's ideal to act like it doesn't exist. Because that construct has real implications.

Ah.

Thanks for clarifying.

I will, just to keep the peace. It's no skin off my nose to humor another if that's what it takes to help them be productive and feel useful. I understand its a very emotional issue and don't wish to offend anyone, but truly, I have a little trouble with this. A man can't become a woman, surgically, until he is fully grown, meaning he will never know what it is to really be a woman. To me, he's just putting on a woman costume and assuming a role.

I also wonder why a man would want to be a woman. Women are denigrated in many societies. Being a girl is often portrayed as a bad or lesser thing. Why would a person set themselves up for this?

I do know two 'women' who were born men that I deal with on a semi-professional level. I try to think of them as women but I'm just not convinced. To me, they just seem like whiny men who like to play dress up. I think they must feel so odd because they really look like men dressing as women - no one is fooled. This is just my observation. I really don't care as long as they can get the job done, eh? But other people often have issues.

Again, I don't want to offend anyone. I'm offering my thoughts to the discussion in hopes that someone can help me understand better.

I would consider them trans-gendered or transexual although I am not 100% sure of the terminology so forgive me if those are the wrong names for someone who has had a sex change.

The thing is they're not looking to be humoured, they're looking to be respected. It doesn't matter what people consider about them in their minds, it would be rude and insensitive to call them "Sir" in the open. The polite, accepting and respectful thing to do is to address them according to the gender they identify as and keep any opinions about the "genuineness" of their gender to yourself when around them. They're not asking the world to join in in some roleplay they're playing.

(I'm taking about real deal M2F's here, not cross-dressers)

...yes, they're women. I don't see why people have a problem with that. If they consider themselves a woman, then they're a woman.

Personally, I don't see the point of gender roles, and I wouldn't particularly care which one I was. But some people feel very strongly about which gender they are, and I respect that.

You're right. Everyone deserves respect, even the cross dressers. I think people are too hung up on gender-rolls. ...and skin color, and religion, and politics, etc...

Of course

Yes. Everyone deserves to identify with whatever gender they feel comfortable with, and I'm not going to question something that they probably have struggled with for a long time to get an answer to.

Also would like to point out that often they wouldn't consider themselves to be "a woman who used to be a man" (or vice versa) but that they've always been a woman and just happened to have the wrong body.

I respect the person's thoughts on the matter. I once had someone thank me for asking if she would rather be called him or her (It wasn't obvious if she was a cross dresser comfortable with her biological gender, or a transvestite who would prefer to be other than her biological gender.) It meant a great deal to her, so it's a matter of respect.

This is the question that makes me think that there is some actual, physiological brain difference that makes these boys/men feel as though they are actually women stuck in men's bodies, and that gender re-assignment is correcting a physiological birth defect. I don't think it's that they want to be women, it's that mentally they are women.
So, yes; I would treat someone with gender re-assignment as a woman.

Besides that, what business is it of mine? It does no harm to me or to society to accommodate someone who wants to be assigned a gender other than what they were physiologically born with.

But it is a waste of time.

^So?
Some guys like to go to car shows - seems like a wast of time, to me.

I stay away from car shows, too. Strip clubs, sporting events, bars ... all of the Alpha Male hangouts are complete wastes of time to me.

Same for issues of other people's sexuality - I'll not waste much of my time, effort, or money (even in "Moral Support") with someone else's issues of sexual identity.