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On the subject of mentally ill men who think they're women

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With the choice of a private room on either the men's or women's ward, where should the pre-op transsexual woman be placed and why?
A private room on the men's ward, because the patient would be a rape threat to the women. 10%  10%  [ 5 ]
A private room on the men's ward, because of privacy concerns. 13%  13%  [ 6 ]
I have no opinion either way. 13%  13%  [ 6 ]
A private room on the women's ward, provided that placement on the men's ward would increase the risk of harm to the patient. 6%  6%  [ 3 ]
A private room on the women's ward, because if the patient is already living as a woman then she should be treated like one, but have her own private room for privacy concerns. 58%  58%  [ 28 ]
Total votes : 48

GivePeaceAChance
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05 Apr 2014, 10:33 pm

none of your answers - a room with any other womon in the ward

I also object to your calling any of my friends MEN, they were merely declared male at birth and have always been female


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06 Apr 2014, 12:33 am

Beneficii is a transgender woman herself. I admit I was confused as to her choice of what to label this topic.

starkid,

If you find yourself arguing that sex is objectively scientific, you're arguing from a distinct lack of knowledge on the topic.

Anne Fausto-Sterling, who has spent decades studying and writing about this topic, would likely disagree with what you are saying as well as with your invocation of science to justify it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Fausto-Sterling

And this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Sexing-Body-Polit ... 0465077145

Which illustrates that sex is a social construct, not an immutable biological reality.

The book is online here:

http://libcom.org/files/Fausto-Sterling ... 20Body.pdf

The sheer number of people who believe their ignorance of a topic constitutes authority on that topic is downright exhausting.



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06 Apr 2014, 12:35 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
She should be placed in the women's ward. She's living like a woman, she IS a woman in all ways except for the weiner. She's no threat to the women and in fact it would probably help her be more receptive to therapy and treatment to be treated with the respect she deserves as the person who she is.


This is really the only ethical answer.



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06 Apr 2014, 1:18 am

Both times I was in the psych ward there where both females and males, but as far as rooms men and women were seperate....So I'd say giving them a room without a room-mate and putting them in a ward that is not strictly for females or males would be the best option.


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beneficii
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06 Apr 2014, 1:33 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
She should be placed in the women's ward. She's living like a woman, she IS a woman in all ways except for the weiner. She's no threat to the women and in fact it would probably help her be more receptive to therapy and treatment to be treated with the respect she deserves as the person who she is.


Thanks. :)


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Verdandi
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06 Apr 2014, 1:33 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Both times I was in the psych ward there where both females and males, but as far as rooms men and women were seperate....So I'd say giving them a room without a room-mate and putting them in a ward that is not strictly for females or males would be the best option.


Any particular reason why a woman - if in a place with gender-segregated wards - should not be put into a ward for women?



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06 Apr 2014, 11:13 am

starkid wrote:
beneficii wrote:
So how do we determine the sex of sterile people? Do we classify them as neuter?


If they can't reproduce, there is nothing to determine. Sex is a scientific classification system. I can't think of a scientific reason to reproductively classify those who cannot reproduce, except to say that they cannot reproduce. It would be like classifying flight patterns of flightless birds.


Both me and my partner can't reproduce for medical reasons (he had testicular cancer, I have endometriosis). Just because we can't reproduce doesn't mean we don't have a sex. Our sex comes before our ability to reproduce. Does that mean prepubescent girls are just in limbo until they have or don't have menses?



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06 Apr 2014, 6:51 pm

Willard wrote:
iceb wrote:
Gender is between the ears not between the legs!


That's ridiculous. Gender is in one's DNA. Period.


so when did you get YOUR DNA test, I have yet to meet anyone who actually knows their real chromosome status. Society just seems to hate Intersex and Trans*& people preferring to negate any real determination of gender - which is internal


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07 Apr 2014, 1:35 am

Yeah, and gotta love this forum.

"I hate discrimination against autistics!"

Then:

"I just love discriminating against other autistic people."

So many people on this forum are basically horrible about transgender people. Like any time the topic comes up, someone is guaranteed to say something horrible and call it logic.



opal
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07 Apr 2014, 5:57 am

Willard wrote:
iceb wrote:
Gender is between the ears not between the legs!


That's ridiculous. Gender is in one's DNA. Period.


Actually, it isn't.
Here's an excellent example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Briffa

Tony has partial androgen insensitivity syndrome - so was born chromosomally male. However the cell receptors in Tony's body were not able to use androgens as most males. So his parents were urged to castrate him and raise him as a girl - Toni. Toni learnt of her condition and decided to take hormone therapy to become a male again, but now feels that neither gender applies to them, and that they are both male and female.

Interestingly, Tony could not marry in Australia , but can in NZ, which has marriage equality.



opal
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08 Apr 2014, 6:33 am

Ok I've killed another thread, sorry! :shrug: :huh:

As to the original question, if the preop patient is on hormone therapy and is living as a woman , then they are no more threat to the women on the ward than any other woman would be , everything else being equal.

OK I'm going :?



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08 Apr 2014, 10:37 am

Verdandi wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
She should be placed in the women's ward. She's living like a woman, she IS a woman in all ways except for the weiner. She's no threat to the women and in fact it would probably help her be more receptive to therapy and treatment to be treated with the respect she deserves as the person who she is.


This is really the only ethical answer.


Well thank you! She's a far cry from a rape threat. She's not attracted to women. Every psych unit I was in was co-ed. You just shared a room with your same gender. Being put in there with a bunch of guys when she's tried so hard to live as a woman is doing nothing but disregarding all her effort and basically flushing everything she's done down the toilet. If it's a rape threat they are talking about, she would probably be in danger of being raped on the mens ward than on the womens ward.


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08 Apr 2014, 5:52 pm

Verdandi wrote:

starkid,

If you find yourself arguing that sex is objectively scientific,


I don't know what "objectively scientific" is supposed to mean.
Quote:
Anne Fausto-Sterling, who has spent decades studying and writing about this topic, would likely disagree with what you are saying as well as with your invocation of science to justify it:


What exactly am I justifying?

You linked me to some of her work before. It was complete nonsense; she apparently decided to ignore the actual meaning of the term and come up with this huge, vague, complicated mess of concepts that are in some way related to sex, much like beneficii's list, for no apparent reason. That is what I told you at the time, and I stand by it. If you want me to accept any of it as even plausible, you've got to give me a reason, not a list of links. I'm not going to read her whole book with no motivation whatsoever.

Quote:
Which illustrates that sex is a social construct, not an immutable biological reality.


What does "immutable biological reality mean"? Sex is mutable? I don't even know what you are saying. And no, sex is not a social construct. It exists. In physical reality. "Social constructs" are not necessary prerequisites to pregnancy and birth; sex is. However, I can see how it might seem like a social construct to someone who had absorbed all these ridiculous ideas about behavior and sexual orientation and socialization and feelings somehow factoring into sex. But people dragging the simple concept of sex into the social sphere does not make it a social construct; all the ideas they've erected around it would be the construct.

Quote:
The sheer number of people who believe their ignorance of a topic constitutes authority on that topic is downright exhausting.

Don't start this arrogant BS with me, or whomever this is addressed to. I won't respond to any more of it. If it's too tiring for you to backup whatever it is you are claiming, I suggest you not bother with me.



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09 Apr 2014, 4:58 am

Sex and gender are different things. If she feels she's not under any threat by being placed in a women's ward, I believe that's where she should be placed, as she's a woman.



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11 Apr 2014, 1:35 am

starkid wrote:
Don't start this arrogant BS with me, or whomever this is addressed to. I won't respond to any more of it. If it's too tiring for you to backup whatever it is you are claiming, I suggest you not bother with me.


No, it's true. You are profoundly ignorant on this subject, and you seem to think that your ignorance constitutes authority to discuss it. This isn't arrogance, this is my understanding that I know more about this topic than you do, and probably more than you will ever know. I am sorry that this reality makes you angry, but it is not something I am responsible for. Choosing to restrict your understanding to extremely simplistic and reductive assumptions about biology that are simply not true is your responsibility, not mine. All I've done is point it out.

Also, it's pretty offensive to reduce femaleness strictly to pregnancy. 10.9% of women are not fertile, or have severe difficulties conceiving. One in ten is a bit high to say "you have to be able to bear a child to be female." Plus, women do not exist strictly to bear children for men.

Also, in the future, if you really do not want me to respond to you, I strongly recommend not rageposting in response to me.



Last edited by Verdandi on 11 Apr 2014, 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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11 Apr 2014, 1:46 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
She should be placed in the women's ward. She's living like a woman, she IS a woman in all ways except for the weiner. She's no threat to the women and in fact it would probably help her be more receptive to therapy and treatment to be treated with the respect she deserves as the person who she is.


This is really the only ethical answer.


Well thank you! She's a far cry from a rape threat. She's not attracted to women. Every psych unit I was in was co-ed. You just shared a room with your same gender. Being put in there with a bunch of guys when she's tried so hard to live as a woman is doing nothing but disregarding all her effort and basically flushing everything she's done down the toilet. If it's a rape threat they are talking about, she would probably be in danger of being raped on the mens ward than on the womens ward.


Indeed. My understanding is that the "rape threat" concern trolling (focused on restrooms and locker rooms) is primarily a strategy used by religious conservatives and a particular subgroup of radical feminists who really really hate transgender women, and not something that has ever materialized as a reality.