Pro-choice or not(Women only)

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I have no idea what your situation is, so I'm not passing judgment on you. I am talking about situations I have seen. I know its agonizing, I know people who have abortions are in difficult situations and aren't bad people, but that doesn't make it right. I'm not saying there is not tremendous pain and sacrifice involved, but if step back from the mom's difficulties (unless they are especially horrible, in which case I support abortion), and look at it as taking the life of a fetus, being poor or being stressed about it or being terrified are not good reasons to me. I;m not denying it would be awful to have an unplanned pregnancy, I've imagined it many times, but it's not all about the mom, it is about the fetus as well. People talk about it like the fetus will have another chance " I'm not ready NOW, I can't give it a good home NOW" etc....but it's now or never. And to deprive something a life because you don't want your life to change is wrong to me. Not in all cases, I understand serious circumstances arise, but in general. I'm not advocating selling your child, but you brought up the finances, and I said the adoptive parents often help out, because why shouldn't they? That's not selling a baby. And you say "they go through all the bonding and then have to give it up"....well if they go through all the bonding and end up loving it and don't want togive it up, how is that worse than an abortion? You're admitting they love this child and develop a relationship with it etc...so how could you justify killing it? How can you argue the mother's pain at giving up a child for adoption is worse than the child not having a life? I'm not saying the mothers' feelings are insignifcant or don't matter, because it must be excruciating. But it's a life at stake, this isn't another life-changing decision like getting divorced or some other painful process - it's a life. And the fact that these moms love the kids enough to want to keep them and want them to be ok means that abortion is wrong - once they see the baby and realize it's a life, they wouldn't dream of killing it, so how is it different during pregnancy? I'm not really for making abortion illegal in most cirumstances because it's too hard to legislate who 'deserves' an abortion...I do leave it up to the woman to decide if her circumstances are really that awful. But I do think many people do not have good enough circumstances to warrant taking a life - grave circumstances, but not that grave. I don't know your circumstances, and I'm sure you were and still are torn up about it. I don't have anything against you. I understand your position. But I'd like respect for mine. You tell me not to judge but then you go and judge me - judging is fine if you acknowledge all angles and you have a reasonable opinion. When I see something that I feel is very wrong, I will speak out against it. I don't think I'm being radical or mean or personally attacking anyone, and I know my opinion is unpopular among most young women my age, but that is how I feel. I'm not about controlling people's bodies - I'm about protecting those who need help. As I said, on all other social issues I am very liberal, and if someone I knew had an abortion I would still be their friend and support them. It doesn't mean I think abortion is right or should be allowed or that it is good for society, but I try to understand other people's pain. I did think before I spoke, because I think about everything very intensely before speaking out against something, and I don't think I'll change my mind any time soon. I don't take issues like this lightly, and I'm not being guided by any religious authority or parental opinion, but this is the conclusion I have reached, and I think it is an understandable one.

Of course they love the baby. Nobody would have an abortion unless they needed it. The moment you conceive you're a mother, and you will always be a mother. I have no children, but I've glimpsed it, and believe me - that love, that feeling, is something else. You don't abort out of choice.

You can imagine it all you like, but until you've lived it, you've got absolutely no idea of what you're talking about. That's all there is to it. I too imagined it with horror over and over. Then it happened, and frankly, it's nothing like you imagine. Because suddenly it's reality, and all the nice candy-floss-cloud ideas you have disappear. It's a decision that will, either way, change your entire life forever. And you've got about two weeks to make it in.

Nobody wants to abort. But sometimes you have to. And it's not 'now or never' at all - it's 'now is the wrong time and after a lot of careful consideration I have come to realise there really is absolutely no way I can keep this child, later on when my situation is better due to the steps I'm already taking to make it the right time, will be the right time'.

Sorry, but yes, it IS all about the Mum and Dad, first and foremost. They're the ones who have to provide for the child for the next however many years, the ones who have to reorganise their lives to accomodate the child, the ones who have lives and who are living and breathing and thinking for themselves. Children cost money. And if they can do it realistically in just a few months, get things ready for that child, then they will. But sometimes you simply can't, and therefore the timing is wrong, so you get rid of the bag of cells and you start again and start moving forward in your life, getting things ready so that next time, maybe - just maybe - you'll be able to go ahead with it. It isn't a child at this point. It's a small bag of cells with the potential to grow into a baby if you leave it a few months. It's barely past the stage your eggs are at each month when you flush them away in your period. That does not take precedent over living, breathing people.

Again, if you worry about taking a life, stop eating. Stop living. You take lives every moment of every day in order to stay alive yourself. This is not about whether or not the potential baby thing is alive; that's not up for debate. Of course it is. This isn't about whether or not the child would be loved or is loved or wanted; of course it is. This is about whether or not the parents can bring that thing to a human being at that particular point in time.

Giving a baby up to another family in exchange for money is selling your child. I don't know how you could even comprehend it, let alone suggest it as an ethical alternative to abortion!!

I'm sorry, but this is something that I feel so strongly about - women need that choice, and they don't need to be preached at. You can't understand it at all until you've been there yourself, in that situation, having to make that choice. Only you - and perhaps your partner - know your situation and your lives and whether or not you can do it at that point in time. To suggest anything else is to absolutely dehumanise the mother and make her nothing more than a glass jar. A non-living, non-breathing, non-thinking, non-human vessel in which to carry the all-important thing that doesn't exist yet.

Many people abort out of legitimate need - extreme financial difficulty, rape, mental illness, physical illness, substance abuse, inability to have any type of sustainable job for one reason or another, etc. But a lot of people don't "need" an abortion - they want one. There are more people than you think (though not most people by any means) who really think all about themselves, and their careers, and their reputation, and their relationships, etc and decide their life is better without a baby. I understand that, but that doesn't mean their desires are necessarily always better than ending a fetus' life and that I should totally support this choice.
I will admit that I can't know it until I live it. I know I would be tempted to have an abortion, and it would change my life forever. Even if I had one, I would be tormented by it the rest of my life. But just because I haven't lived something, doesn't mean I can't think its wrong. As I repeatedly have said, I get that these women are in a difficult situation that is impossible for me to fully understand, and I'm not some radical pro-lifer who would assault them and say they're evil, but at the same time i don't like radical pro-choicers who say all pro-lifers are evil mysognists who want to control women and make them miserable. I can see both sides, and I've fallen more on the side of the pro-life one. I see killing a fetus as wrong, and even though I know there's a lot of pain surrounding that debate, that is how I feel.
You never HAVE to abort unless your life is in danger, but I realize there are circumstances that make keeping the baby next to impossible. That being said, it IS now or never. That fetus is gone and not coming back. The mom may have another child in a few years and be a great mother to it, and that's great, but it's not the same one.

Adoption is an option, but yes, it should be up to mom and dad. I'm not saying that people who truly can't care for a child in any way should have one, but "oh, it's incovenient right now" doesn't justify that to me. If the fetus really is a clump of cells, I actually don't have too much of an issue with it. But abortions are allowed up to 3 months into pregnancy, and it's fairly developed by then.

Well I think we can agree that human life is generally considered more protected than the life of bacteria, sperm, or other things that are also alive. But if a child is loved and wanted, and the parents therefore are most likely not completely incompetent at raising it, they always can bring the baby to a human being. It may be difficult, financially or otherwise, and unexpected, and require a change of plan, but if these parents would love the child so much once it was born, how can killing it be justified? Depriving the child of a life with a loving family, even if its not ideal circumstances, is not justifiable in many situations to me.
I'm not suggesting someone get pregnant on purpose to get their expenses paid for, but if a family wants to adopt your unplanned child and is offering to help you out, I don't see that as wrong. Do you think surrogacy, egg and sperm donation are wrong? That's selling people a child, but is it wrong when one person needs the money and another person desperately wants a child?

I understand it's an emotional issue that hits home for a lot of people, so it makes sense to feel passionately about it. But who's to say women need that choice and don't need to be preached at? That's your opinion, and it's an understandable and maybe even correct one. But it's not set in stone, and I have to disagree. I think fetuses need a chance at life, and it shouldn't be considered so okay in this society to take that away. I wouldn't preach at a woman in a negative way, as I said, I hate people who stand outside abortion clinics with signs, but if afriend asked my opinion on what she should do, I would say (if the circumstances weren't awful) that I am against abortion but that it is ultimately her decision. I respect giving woman the choice, but I don't think there's anything wrong with preaching respectfully against something I think is wrong. It's become accepted that the right to abortion is a requirement and anyone who speaks against it must be some horrible right-wing nut who hates women, and that's just not true. Many people feel it is a right, many people feel it isn't. Most people on both sides aren't evil and ignorant, they have their reasons. I don't want to see people suffer, but I look at abortion as the fetus suffering as well as the mother, so its a complicated situation. I don't think women are "vessels" - i hate the mysogyny argument that pro-lifers think women should be constantly barefoot and pregnant. That's not true of course. I'm a woman, I believe the woman's feelings are important, and I understand she is in great pain over the decision....but the fact is she is a vessel. She's more than a vessel, but she is carrying another life that IMO should be taken into consideration. That doesn't mean I hate women and want to control them and rip their choices away. People on both sides can be passionate, but still respectful and understanding.

I'm glad you can sort of see both sides, and you do seem more reasonable than most. I don't think you're a horrible misogynist or religious freak or anything at all - sorry if I came across like that (damn PMS!).

I guess what I'm saying is love and everything is great, but if it means being homeless or close enough to homeless, with no decent nutrition or education or clothing or any necesseties of life leading to a life of ill-health and bad choices, that could all be avoided if one waits a few years, how is it really a choice? Love just isn't enough sometimes - you can't raise a child on an emotion when they're starving and cold and sick. You want what's best for your children, you love them from the moment you conceive. For that reason, sometimes there's just no choice, as hard as that is.

I can't explain it, but choosing to abort and wait a few years for me was a decision borne purely out of absolute love for my future children. In doing that, in making that small sacrifice now, I've given them a much, much better future. One where they might have a chance at a decent education, clothing, proper nutrition, a roof over their heads.

I guess the whole beliefs thing is a bit arbitrary as we all think differently about things, but the way I see it now and the way I felt it so strongly at the time, the body is just a vessel at that point (the fetus I mean) - the soul isn't there yet. That same person will return, just in the next one, in a few years, when we're all ready.

Yeah, I guess it kind of comes down to what you believe in terms of 'souls'. If I believed that child could be conceived again at a later date, I'd be totally ok with abortion. I don't have any religious beliefs, and therefore no belief in 'souls' so to me, once the child is gone, its gone. And of course it's understandable to want to give any child you have the best shot at a good life, but since to me the one aborted can never be recovered, I don't usually think it's worth it. Especially with today's society, the chances of a young mother being freezing on the street is unlikely....not like unwed mothers in times where they were outcasts if the guy didn't marry them and had no livelihood. I just believe that if a child is loved, he or she will probably turn out pretty well regardless of other circumstances - I'd be more worried about a kid born to parents who had all the access to money, medical care, education, recreational activities, etc....but had no time to bond and really pay attention to that child.

LeKiwi is right quirky, you really do need to think before you speak.

Also use paragraphs when you make a long post, I had a real hard time reading them.

Sorry, I will break them up from now on. But I did think long and hard before I spoke. Nothing that was said in response to me was something that I had not considered before. I'm not a judgmental person who shoots off insults and condemnations on a whim...I don't think anything I said was cruel or totally one-sided. I simply explained why I didn't find most reasons for having abortions justifiable, and I think I am entitled to do so if I acknowledge the suffering felt on the other side of the debate as well.

Read 'Surfacing.'

Here the part of the pro-life/pro-choice debate that I don't understand, the male point of view of it. Men don't get pregnant and they don't choose to have abortions, so they should not have a say in the debate.

That's a good point, but I don't agree because the fetuses being aborted belong to the men as well. What if the man was strongly pro-life and felt that he was losing his child? There's really no way to get around the issue, as it is the woman's body, but I think it's sad the man does not have a say in it. What if he really wants the baby and is fine with raising it if the mom doesn't want it? I would personally be devastated if I was a man and my girlfriend aborted our child.

I am very emotional about abortions. I was pregnant once and I had a termination. It was before christmas and they could only do after christams in the next year. Already I was like really pregnant and the doctor goes "I dont know, the baby or fetus is a bit big" but they did it anyway because I had a disability.
They put me under and then they said after i slept for hours and they put on the drip because i was a bit dehydrated. Anyway, the nurse woke me up and the first thing I did was cry and say "I killed my baby" and then i started going on about everything else in my life that I felt sad about. I was getting really agigatated telling them to get the drip out of my arm and I wouldnt stop crying and i didnt shut up. My bf came and I was annoyed I didnt want see him. He didnt want me to have an abortion. Anyway, I was crying and he tried to comfort me and I told him "dont" and so then he left. Then at some stage they got a social worker to see me and I was stilling going on and so she sent me down to psych to see a psychiatrist.
I have had a other abortion too but this time it was smaller so I dont know, I just didnt feel as emotional only agigatated. I nearly had a miscarriage with that baby. They said, it was small and if there was any problems and I said "no" but I was using alot of drugs.
I never deliberatley got pregnant. In fact I went out of my way not to.
I dont know if it was hormones or what but I still feel sad about it and think if I was ever pregnant again. Wouldnt it be better to give it up for adoption but that makes it really difficult because I love babies. When I visit my friend. All I do is look after her baby. She has a toddler and other children but babies are so beautiful and cute. I always just want to hold one.
Ive always wanted children

Hmmmm,I guess some women have stronger maternal instincts that others.....

How does someone know in advance whether or not she can deal with the years of anguish knowing she murdered her unborn baby? Who has the right to decide whether or not another innocent human being gets to live or die? How would anyone like to be given life only to be at her mother's mercy with the possibility of ending up in the same condition as this child? (Warning: do NOT click on the link unless you've got the stomach for viewing something horrible.)

I know of a guy who worked at a sewage treatment plant and had to quit because he couldn't take seeing body parts of aborted babies anymore. I also know of girls who had abortions and could not even handle visiting a friend anymore once she had a baby.

People know the effect abortion has on babies, but people can't know the effect abortions can have on those who choose to go through with them. Once something like that is done, there is no second chance to choose differently with that child once he or she is gone. If women repeat the process of abortion, it can only desensitize them over time.

Personally, I never had an abortion even though I was terrified of my future given the circumstances I was facing both times I was pregnant. My heart goes out to those women who have gone through the process of abortion. There is forgiveness, but I don't know if one could ever truly forget something so awful.

My children are now grown up and I have two grandchildren. I cannot imagine my life without them. I never could have known about the love and joy I now have with my children back then when I was pregnant. My daughter was terrified too when she had her first child, but after he was born, she joyfully looked forward to her second child's arrival. She too is immensely thankful for never having given in to an abortion.

If she thinks that a zef is the same thing as a baby, and thinks that abortion is 'murder,' then she should probably choose not to have an abortion.



My mother was and is pro-choice. I am glad to know for sure that I was a wanted child, not something my mother had to 'get used to,' 'get over,' or 'grow to love.'
(btw. I strongly suspect that your photo is of an SAB, not a therapeutic abortion; it is clearly late-term, and late-term abortions do not deliver the fetus intact).



You have a source for that? Because disposing of human tissue in either the toilet or the regular trash is so illegal that the hospital that does it can be fined so hard that it is shut down, and also face criminal charges, if it happens on a regular basis. My hospital can't even dispose of female sanitary napkins from the bathrooms in the regular trash - they have to treat anything more serious than a band-aid as a biohazard. That is not an exaggeration, btw.



That's very sad. Those girls should probably have some counseling.



But no one has a right to choose for that person other than the person herself. No one can better predict a woman's own reaction than the woman herself. You do not have the right to protect other adults from making choices that they may later regret.



Given your views, that's probably a good thing. Aren't you glad that no one was able to take your choice away from you?



I doubt that most of them would want to forget it, any more than one would want to forget being by their parent's bedside as they died.

My children are now grown up and I have two grandchildren. I cannot imagine my life without them. I never could have known about the love and joy I now have with my children back then when I was pregnant. My daughter was terrified too when she had her first child, but after he was born, she joyfully looked forward to her second child's arrival. She too is immensely thankful for never having given in to an abortion.[/quote]

LKL pretty much said it all.

That photo, if it's real, is very late-term and unlikely to be an aborted baby (if you read what they do in late-term abortion you'd realise why). 98% of abortions happen in the first 14 weeks, so that's very rare. And they don't get flushed, as LKL said, so I have to wonder about the credibility of that source.

Abortion is traumatic as hell, but I'm glad I did it, because it would have been a squillion times more traumatic to be forced to go through with the pregnancy and be stuck with a child in exceptionally difficult if not impossible circumstances for the rest of our lives.

You say 'how do you know you wouldn't regret murdering your child for the rest of your life'. Well, for one, it's not murdering your child - it's getting rid of a few cells that could develop into a child. The way I see it, it's just a few weeks up from a period, and not a lot more than that. If you thought you were murdering your child then the chances are you wouldn't do it anyway, you'd keep it - nice how there's that choice, huh?

And no, you won't ever forget it - I'd hate to forget it. It's not a nice memory but it's a part of my past the same as anything else. We all make mistakes, we move on, but we don't forget. Why would you want to?

Oh wait, spose you've not been there so you don't really know...

I really don't know if I find abortion okay. Maybe it depends. I personally wouldn't have an abortion, but I'm just guessing that I shouldn't. And for me I don't want to have one because I want more kids; I want a nice big happy autistic family. I get the depo shots though right now because I don't feel like having more right now; being pregnant made me dysfunctional and I want to feel functional for a while, maybe make sure my new meds combination is the one for me before I get pregnant again.