"AS men have it harder"--does this bother you?

Post Reply New Topic

The first remark you quote is taken out of context; it's not only regarding finding and keeping relationships rather than anything else, but in response to The_Face_of_Boo's comment that "It's usually harder for men in general, not just aspie men." It's true, though, that the same poster also seemed to hold the stance that it's harder for men with AS than women with AS, since that was what he was polling - but what's harder? I don't think he's asserting that everything is harder, more that it's harder to find and keep relationships; it's a post in the love and dating forum. Perhaps he holds that relationship experience exhaustively determines happiness, which would be false, but as far as I can see this is not made explicit.

The second quote is problematic, but for a different reason than the one you mention: MrDiamondMind is making an inference of the form "on the mean women with AS are more successful in finding relationships than men with AS, therefore all women with AS are more successful in finding relationships than any men with AS" which is fallacious, inferring a much stronger statement from a weaker one. There are some women well past their teens who venture into the love and dating forum to lament their persistent bad luck, despite the possible incentive against doing so. Perhaps they deviate from the mean, which would serve as a concrete counterexample to MrDiamondMind's inference.

What I meant by "attacking straw men" was the straw man fallacy: arguing against someone's position by representing it as something more objectionable, and arguing against that instead. Most of the discussion in this thread concerns a position such as "men with AS overall have a more difficult time than women with AS" which is perhaps open to the attack from buryuntime on the overall level of functioning (though is this the case for diagnoses of asperger's syndrome, rather than the entire autism spectrum?), the attack of there being more female victims of sexual assault than male ones, and questioning the comparative quality as opposed to quantity of the relationship experience of men and women. ZakFiend has asserted this questionable position in this thread, but I doubt that most of the people who voted in AussieAspie36's poll would do so. (Perhaps I am being too optimistic?)

I believe that the quality of one's own comparative personal experience can be gauged much of the time, albeit not precisely or exhaustively, so I disagree with the sentiment that it is impossible to compare the quality of personal experience. For example, it is surely reasonable to suggest that people living in Canada are, on the mean, happier than people living in Iraq. Going from the general to the specific, I think I can uncontroversially say that numerous victims of war have had a harder time in life than I have in numerous respects, being sheltered and privileged. Maybe it's not so easy to compare the quality of relationship experience of men with women, but the matter can't be brushed aside with this blanket dismissal.

Oh BS.
Dying from a lack of sex? It may be ONE cause for depression but its not the sole one. (I don't want sex, at all, and yet I've been depressed enough to have attempted suicide. Its not one and the same. My guy friend with a fiance was hospitalized due to depression. I can assure you, it has absolutely nothing to do with sex.)

Guys are lucky in the sense they can jack off and "release" themselves as needed, alone. MANY women cannot. Many women cannot even get that release WITH a partner. So you're saying guys have it harder because they can't get a partner to fulfill their sexual desires when one third ( the number varies greatly depending on source) of women are incapable of being satisfied at all? Or what about the fact that it takes them a shedload MORE time to get off? Even if they are capable of masturbating, it can take at least an hour, as opposed to a few minutes you guys are capable of enjoying.

Aspie girls still have a lot of socializing issues. Its not as simple as "lowering your standards" when you're incapable of reading what the other person wants, or too afraid to let anyone near. My only "standards" are someone who respects me for who I am, and tries not to push me into their own pretty box of what they think I belong in. Should be a pretty standard thing for everyone to want, yet surprisingly hard to find someone who respects you or lets you be who you are. Should I "lower" that so I can get into an abusive relationship? f**k. No.

Besides that, there are a TON of other aspects.

Aspie girls for one, tend to be interested in more masculine topics. This can be both good and bad... you sometimes can get an advantage being hired because you're a girl in a male dominated workforce... but on the other hand, ,you're often looked down upon because many guys are sexist and don't believe women should be there, or are capable of being there.
I'm studying for mechanical engineering right now, and doing an internship at an engineering company. A lot of people respect me just as well as any other person there, but there are still a ton of ppl who make chauvenistic comments and actions. That they don't believe I"m capable of carrying 10lbs of steel here and there. My bosses won't allow me to use the saws and equipment down on the floor that my fellow male interns are allowed to, despite the fact I already know how to use them. That half the guys hit on you all the time because you're one of the only females down on the factory floor of 500 ppl... there are days I come home and just cry. Its not easy to take that. As an aspie, or maybe just a female, or maybe just because I'm shy, I don't like attention, especially not THAT kind of attention. I don't like the lewd comments I get, and all I'm allowed to do is ignore it and pretend it doesn't bother me and smile as if I didn't hear it. Or things are said and I dont know wtf it means, and I'm not sure how the hell to react.

Day after day after day I have to go through that s**t. Unfortunately, my prospects don't look up. I'll have to go through it regardless of the workplace I go to, because thats just how a male dominated place is. Even if they don't say anything, when everyguy stares at you and checks you out wherever it goes, it gets upsetting. My natural instinct is curl up and hide under a blanket, but I can't there, so ahve to wait til I get home.

Beyond that, there are simple biological aspects that makes it difficult to be a woman (especially an Aspie). Look around the womans forum and you see tons of women complaining and freaking out about menstrating and s**t <-- its a natural biological process that just about every woman has to got hrough, and yet as an aspie it makes it unbearable for some. Even if it doesn't disguist and skeeve you out, you still have to experience the goddamn pain of it, and the completely unwanted side effects of being more emotional, bloated, and anemic. What wonders there are! Then there are those wonderful things called "bras." You'll also notice quite a few threads about that too. I know for one I hate them with a passion and its the first thing that comes off as soon as I walk in room, not shoes or socks or belt, but the damn bra. Worst contraption in human history imo =.=;;; hate the effing things.

I don't think men have it worse, nor females, nor do I really give a damn if you think you have it worse, because its human nature to think your own self or gender or race or whatever category YOU belong in has it worse than another. But it is definitely difficult for both, and pathetic how easily people look down on other categories because they don't experience it themselves.

I never said lack of sex was the only cause of depression, but IT DOES LEAD TO SUICIDES. In other words, unlucky guys do die from lack of sex and/or relationships.

For a girl, all she needs to do is to sit there and look attractive and some guy will come along, marry her and take care of her. She doesn't need to get an education or a job unless she wants to. All she has to do is say yes to the guy that is attracted to her.

Guys have to put their self esteem on the line every time they are forced to hit on a woman. In many cases, the woman takes pleasure in ripping their ego to shreds. So how many times do women hit on guys? How many times to girls pay for dinner and the movies on a date?

I have read studies that conclusively prove that a guy's income is far more important to most girls than his looks. Its a fact.

If a guy fails to start a sexual relationship with someone, then its because he is unlucky. If a girl fails, its because she is too picky. Girls control relationships, not guys. They use sex to keep guys in the relationship.

So get real. Men carry the load when it comes to relationships. Women just whine about everything.

So we should just say yes to whatever douche that happens that wants to marry us? A close friend of mine was talking to a guy who wants her to move in with him, he says he could care for her and be faithful to her. He calls her a used up slut that no one could ever love. Romantic huh? I guess I should tell her she's got it great.



*raises hand* I initiated my last relationship. I asked him out, and I initiated out first physical encounters. I don't really care to have my meals and dates paid for, I pay for them myself quite often. I know plenty of guys that leech off their girlfriends, but I'm not making the generalization that all guys are moochers.



And it's very important for a girl to have good looks. Looks is something you're born with*, finances aren't. *(Unless you resort to something so drastic as plastic surgery, but many males find this unattractive.)


And we shouldn't have to feel pressured to give sex to keep a man interested.



That is just unattractive and rude.

You're ignoring everything but sex life/romance, which leads me to believe you aren't dating anyone. Your attitude might be a huge contribution if this is the case.

AS males have it easier because they get diagnosed earlier.
AS males have it easier because they're least likely to be abused and/or manipulated.
AS males have it easier because it's more normal to have obsessive interests as a male, especially those of a "masculine" variety.
AS males have it easier because they don't have to deal nearly as much with appearance, or deal with things like menstruation.
AS males have it easier because they're not expected to be nearly as empathetic as females.
AS males have it easier because they do not have to deal with being ostracized socially by cliques and gossip.

Hey, anyone want to add to the list?

(I don't believe gender has anything to do with severity, but all in fun).

[quote="n4mwd"][A few years ago there was a guy that couldn't get a girlfriend to save his life. Literally. He finally snapped and killed several random girls before taking his own life. Now that made the news. But again it was lop sided. It focused on the crazy evil male that savagely murdered some innocent girls and not so much what caused him to snap. He was referred to as "the loser that couldn't get a girlfriend" rather than the victim of society that he was.
quote]

He wasn't a victim of society .He was a murderer, and his victims were people.

No-one dies from not getting any.

And by the way AS effects a lot more issues than the ability to get laid, believe it or not

Somewhat.
But not really.

I counter your pathetic "suicide due to depression because he's not getting laid" to clinically documented "postpartum depression" than an unfortunate amount of women experience. Oh damn, look, they're just doing what they're biologically "supposed" to, and still experiencing shedloads of pain over it. How freggin wonderful is that?



Yes, thats all because seriously, EVERY woman is born attractive. And especially every AS woman is born with the ability to beautify herself (hmmm... theres this thing... that AS ppl tend to get... that makes them hypersensitive to all sorts of stuff... maybe thats why I absolutely cannot wear makeup, not even for a wedding or another formal event. Or maybe thats why my hair is chopped to two inches long because it was touching my face all the time and I just want to scream bloody murder?) I mean give it a f*****g break! Yeah, maybe only the attractive ladies just have to do is say yes to whoever asks her out, but not everyone is attractive =_=;
Oh, and of course it doesn't matter how the guy treats you! Nope! You're pretty, some dude asked you out, you're just supposed to say "yes" to the first dude, and put up with the abuse the rest of your life! Lifes easy!

I've heard enough of the "what you can't cook? you'd suck as a wife" or "get your ass in the kitchen where you belong" and other BS sexist comments like that. Believe it or not, NOT every woman wants to be a housewife or enslaved to her husband as you so seem to think is the "easiest" way. I'd rather be alone for the rest of my life than put up with s**t like that.

I love this. Clearly women have no place but to get married and be her husbands little servant. What a great aspiration to live up to! I'll get right on that!



Oh no! Your self-esteem! Surely thats nothing any girl has ever felt... surely...
WTF do you even honestly believe yourself over this crap?!
I have yet to meet a single person, male OR female who enjoys hurting another. Yes, some dude asks you out, and you're NOT INTERESTED, so you're ripping his ego to shreds?! !! !!
I've heard guys say the most repulsive s**t about women, going on about whether you'd "tap that" etc. So if an "ugly" girl hits on them, they just ignore her. No, that definitely doesn't hurt her!
I've been on a few dates... and oh... I've paid every time.


Which is pathetic, but again not true for everyone.

The one and only person I've ever had a crush on in my life is neither good looking (not remotely...) nor financially well set (I make just as much as him... in my temp job); but hmmm... theres got to be something else there that makes me like him... right?


No, YOU'RE saying this. Not everyone else. YOU believe these are the reasons. I do not.


Exactly. Because women are just supposed to stay at home, rear the kids, and make food for her man and take every damn insult he gives her, because that's what she's SUPPOSED to do.

BS. Men do not carry the load. I have never let a guy one-sidedly take care of me like you describe. Never.

And women are under load too. We're expected to keep our bodies to a ridiculous standard. We're expected to keep ourselves borderline underweight, but never put on muscle, so we're supposed to somehow use up a whole moloch-load of calories WITHOUT putting on muscle definition. We're expected to be pathologically thin but still have large breasts. We're expected to look sexy all the time and are told we're unfeminine, butch, and other terms of endearment if we don't. You males are at least allowed to have NORMAL, HEALTHY bodies. No one rips you to shreds if you're over 50 kilograms. No one wants to rip out YOUR external obliques because they're ever so slightly visible.

And sex? Don't get me f*****g started. Women are expected to be always available, do anything even if it makes them uncomfortable, even if it makes them VOMIT, or they're seen as 'stingy' 'bitchy' 'won't put out' etc. Yet they're not allowed to be sexual in their own right. Oh no. Women are supposed to be finely-tuned man-pleasers, but never sexual beings in their own right. Women who are human, sexual beings are usually called 'sluts' and seen as fair game for sexual harassment.

And I don't believe for two seconds that women have it easy regards getting laid. I haven't managed that in 3 years.

Do you have proof for this?


Because it's so much fun to be dependent on a man who only cares about your looks and will probably dump you at the sight of a wrinkle, but at least you'll get laid which is the most important thing in the world.


Women put their self esteem on the line every time a man hits them, rapes them, abuses or insults them - but then again they were probably asking for it right?
Also, plenty of women pay or pay half on dates.


Proof please.
Yes, there are girls out there for a guy's money - they are called gold-diggers, they are the kind who really love "nice" guys because they can scam them easily - stop being a "nice" guy and start thinking of women as people and you might just find girls who think of guys as human beings not as walking wallets.


So the key is to settle for any man - ANY man - because being in a relationship with a person you dislike.. is great? Yeah.. makes perfect sense. Also, if you are in a relationship just to get sex, don't be surprised if you get the type of women who will manipulate you. Women who respect men, want respect in return.


Yes, men never whine that they're victims of society because they can't get laid and everything is the fault of evil women running the world and spending all their time and effort to keep men away from the sex they are owed.
Also, women tend not to be attracted to men who think that rape and murder are justifiable if a woman won't sleep with you, radical concept I know.

The way I see it, it's not a competition. Whether or not someone else is suffering more or as much as you are, or less, doesn't really change your own suffering.

Though I don't do as well as this as I should, I think the goal should be to feel compassionate toward other people's struggles, regardless of their cause and regardless of whether we have it better or worse than they do.

Both men and women with AS (as well as men and women without AS) all have their struggles -- though there may be some people who have never struggled at all, I don't really know.

Having said that, I do feel for many of the Aspie men here on WP who say they are alone and have always been alone. I don't see that sentiment as much coming from women. This is not a scientific assessment, just a perception, so it might be wrong, but my impression is that it's generally harder for men with AS to get into a relationship, and while relationships are not the end-all, they do make life more bearable.

Yeah, men never whine. They just go on murderous rampages because they are denied access to the sex women owe them. BTW, I believe we're talking about the "Pa. Gym Shooter," who walked into a gym and shot a bunch of women because he was angry females didn't find his big screen TV and $7,000 car attractive enough to offer him copious amounts of sex.

Seriously, they very idea that it's justifiable to kill a bunch of women because of an inability to get laid is disturbing. And creepy. I certainly wouldn't want to date some freak who thought it was cool to kill me if I didn't spread my legs on demand.

Murderers = not victims.

I would say that both have it pretty hard, but for different reasons. For instance, being female, I am finding it difficult to get an accurate DX. Last try was on Friday...basically, the shrink just wants to give me a handful of happy pills & drug me up. Yeah like I want to end up in the same boat as some of the characters in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, & end up rocking in a corner, mindless, drooling all over myself. No thanks! I went there for testing. I walked out before my hour was up. Soooo once again, I hit a brick wall for getting a DX. Sucks!

Men who find their niche in society actually have it pretty good as far as employment goes. Probably better than women, because more people tolerate quirky geeky guys. Of course, there are exceptions, ie Temple Grandin. If your female, you must be "normal." If you aren't normal, there are plenty of drugs that are available to make you normal.

Socially, both genders are out of luck. That's just the way it is, unfortunately. Unless, all the NTs go away, which I don't see happening anytime soon.

Agreed.

Here's a lil tip N4mwd. You should try treating women as people, not as stingy evil b*****s who owe you sex and won't give you any.

A question for the ladies:

My experience (I've lived in 4 different countries in Western Europe) has nothing in common with what some of the guys say in this thread. I've met gold diggers but they were definitely not the majority. The women I've met were generally educated (at least high school level) and had jobs - or at least were doing their best to have one. Most of them don't want to stay at home with their babies more than 1 or 2 years. And it's very common to share the bill when going to the restaurant/movies etc, although many men insist to pay for the first date if they did the asking. In Sweden for instance, most women won't even consider accepting anybody to pay for them and most couples have separate bank accounts.

The question - is it so different in the USA or wherever these men come from? I can't get my head around it - are really most women leeches who only want to sponge off a guy or these people live in a fantasy world?

I think the issue is, that when a man has an attitude of entitlement and sees women as objects, he drives away the women who would treat him well and gets left with the type of woman that only cares about money and getting something from him (which is the same thing he's doing to her) - he inevitably will get rejected or dumped by such girls when the money runs out, which leaves him more bitter which starts the whole cycle over again.