Internalized misogyny

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Kjas
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12 Dec 2012, 8:43 pm

Zinia wrote:

Virginia Woolf wrote a little bit about your question in "A Room of One's Own."

She suggested that SOME men, insecure men, need other people to hold a mirror up to them in order to make them feel bigger.

These men need to look down on others, not just women, but also people of color or different sexual orientation, so that they can feel like they are valuable. This is because they depend on comparison to others for their own sense of self-value, and they deny that they have the qualities of others who they look down upon within themselves.

She suggested that once these men learn to embrace the other in themselves, and to accept that others are just as valuable as them, then they will become fully actualized people. At least that is my interpretation of her writing.

Although the author of this post was talking about sexism - specifically from men, it applies just as much to women. Realistically this is what you are doing. Comparing yourself with these women in order to feel better about yourself - because your sense of self worth is dependant the constrast and comparison to other people.

Perhaps this thread would be more productive if we were looking at what equality really means - not just sexism, but other things also - and also how one should begin to remove oneself from being dependent on one's sense of self worth coming from the contrast and comparison of others.

I am sure you are not the only one who does this - you are simply self aware enough to realise you are doing it. And that is a massive step forward and something to be proud of.

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MXH
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12 Dec 2012, 8:48 pm

Kjas wrote:

Zinia wrote:

Although the author of this post was talking about sexism - specifically from men, it applies just as much to women. Realistically this is what you are doing. Comparing yourself with these women in order to feel better about yourself - because your sense of self worth is dependant the constrast and comparison to other people.

Perhaps this thread would be more productive if we were looking at what equality really means - not just sexism, but other things also - and also how one should begin to remove oneself from being dependent on one's sense of self worth coming from the contrast and comparison of others.

I am sure you are not the only one who does this - you are simply self aware enough to realise you are doing it. And that is a massive step forward and something to be proud of.

The bolded being one of the most abundant issues in both WP and society.

meems
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12 Dec 2012, 8:51 pm

Kjas wrote:

Zinia wrote:

I was denying the similarities between myself and other women/men while simultaneously despising these traits in myself, a cycle of self-hatref.

I wasn't doing anything to feel better about myself and I felt no self-worth until I stopped trying to deny myself an identity, and stopped trying to categorize everything as masculine or feminine and good or bad.

I feel better about myself now in some regards, but that's also come through seeing value in other people, mostly other women.

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meems
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12 Dec 2012, 8:54 pm

Until I became able to see people without deciding all of this negative s**t about them, I hadn't been able to reflect on myself without feeling all this negative s**t about me.

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Kjas
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12 Dec 2012, 9:08 pm

meems wrote:

Until I became able to see people without deciding all of this negative sh** about them, I hadn't been able to reflect on myself without feeling all this negative sh** about me.

The power of assumptions - and one od the many reasons why I don't think they are a smart idea.

When you let your assumptions go, both in regards to others and yourself, you're going to feel free. That alone should make it worth it.

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MXH
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12 Dec 2012, 9:09 pm

meems wrote:

Until I became able to see people without deciding all of this negative sh** about them, I hadn't been able to reflect on myself without feeling all this negative sh** about me.

Its something I and many other not only have done but continue to do. And added up with what i mentioned last post it can have terrible consequences on self.

Ai_Ling
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13 Dec 2012, 3:38 pm

meems wrote:

I have spent most of my adult life and the later part of adolescence feeling like I was unable to make connections with most other females, or at least no healthy, positive connections. I had internalized the sexist messages bombarding me from as far back as I remember, and I accepted a lot of it and then projected it onto other people in my life.

I would say I didn't get along with girls because of things like:
- they're catty, passive aggressive, petty etc.:
- they were airheads, didn't read or have intellectual depth.
- they were only interested in males and makeup, painting their faces like clowns(simultaneously judging their appearance and the value they place on appearance)
- we don't have similar interests, I would say I never met other girls who were into interests of mine that I considered masculine.(thus normal and good)
- really braggy, vapid, dead behind the eyes OR
- controlling, manipulative, soulless, heartless b***h.

Most statements listed above can be made easy to justify for me by looking at anecdotal evidence from my own life and deciding I've known enough women who've done x and y to fairly apply that to most women. In reality none of those statements are accurate, and a lot of it is reflective of my intense self-loathing. I try to be aware of it even if it's uncomfortable and sometimes I feel really abnormal in a negative way for thinking so much about this. Trying to look at a person without somehow seeing first an object rather than an individual person can be difficult, but it's important.

I do feel much of the same way that you do. But its kinda weird sometimes for people to hate there own sex to that extent. A lot of women will bond together over say hating males because there supposedly so different then them. But the way I look at NT women and aspie women, we are about as different from NT women as males are (in general). Different kinda different but we are expected to be NT women and looked upon by NT female stereotypes. At least males aren't. Then we are expected to befriend other females. Other females see that were "weird" so were socially excluded often. So in the end it leads to developing more insecurities and hate. People don't value us as much cause we lack certain traits. Therefore, we fall into this mode of female hatred. Sorta a defense mechanism, its like "who cares, there just a much of catty, shallow, vain, boy-crazed b*****s". Not to say our hatred is unjustified its just largely confusing, and misunderstood like everything else about us.

Yuzu
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13 Dec 2012, 10:38 pm

Internalized misogyny: supposedly we women all have it.

In his book "Ways of Seeing" the author John Berger argues that in order to function in society women adapt and internalize the male gaze.

"Men look at women." "Women look at themselves being looked at." That is, women learn to see themselves primarily through the lens of the male gaze, and to judge themselves accordingly.

when I first read this book in college, I thought it was so true.

Watilla
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23 Dec 2012, 5:41 pm

Hi, meems.

Thank you for your honest post, I appreciated it.

I quoted something of yours from this thread, which was..

meems wrote:

Accepting sexism isn't tolerance. Some people are going to be really uncomfortable having a conversation about it when the conversation becomes about the extent to which sexism influences us as individuals. It's really easy to talk about other people's sexism, but if you can't confront it in yourself, it really isn't possible to effectively confront it in society.

I believe this to be a soberingly valid point.

A while ago I came across this: The Psychology of Prejudice: An Overview. It is very interesting.

LisaOfShades
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25 Dec 2012, 1:15 pm

*stares completely speechless in complete awe and admiration*

You voiced it even better than I ever could... I have to save this... and read all (but I'm so tired...)

You are entirely right... and whoever isn't like that is actually labelled as defective... "oh you don't like to paint fake glued nails? You're such a freak!" those horrors make me want to throw up... after seeing nail diseases... I understand the custom... I prefer to aim on health.

I saw you write that you have a lover, and I am very happy for you... I have a hard time finding anyone who's not a complete s**t head... I am a misanthrope for a reason... "freaks" are gem... really... Thank you.

I'll PM you eventually... you're welcome to do so.

EDIT:
I read more... but about to faint...

You are a woman!?... misleading avatar... then if your black lover is male... make sure he treats you with respect... unless you get off being treated like a toy-slut... to each their own... but I'm more worried now... the behavior of a family member is unacceptable either way... but sometimes when someone hate our lover, they might have seen traits that we don't suffer from yet... but are yet to come... I don't think it,s the case... I think you're very bright... sorry about thinking you were a guy. hey you're actually a bearable female. I really thought you had a brain... Females are strongly discouraged to use it and forced to only put their energy into being pleasing to men... tragic...

About that effeminate boy... I adore men like that... I find them gorgeous... we all have the 3 brains but use different specialities... the female clit stretch as a dick, our ovaries fall out as testies, male nipple grow into milk factories... but we're exactly the same... we even make the opposite sex hormone in our adrenals... so we have both of everything. While the majority is something... it doesn't mean that someone who's in a wider range is defective... some people are born with both sexes... and a mix of hormones... and a mix of traits... it,s like a 5 year old thinking he's the center of the world and that it didn't exist before him...

I'm a misanthrope.........

puddingmouse
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25 Dec 2012, 8:16 pm

I don't mix with people who are catty or shallow, but I don't see them as gender traits. The problem I have with mixing with most women is that most of them are heterosexual, so I feel freakish beside them. I feel weird around most straight men too, because their sexuality is different to mine, even though we both like women. I even feel weird around other bi and lesbian women because I am so not used to being amongst my own kind and don't know what to do. So I feel uncomfortable around most people (apart from asexuals, I suppose).

Even if some women are catty and shallow, I don't view them as the worst traits someone can have. I am quite forgiving of people unless they are sadistic, abusive or hypocritical. There are some extremely unpleasant people out there, so only being shallow or gossipy is something I try to ignore.

The way that internalised misogyny has affected me is that it has made me quite a passive, timid person, when I'm raging inside. I'm so used to making compromises for other people that I do it automatically. I resent it so much and I don't know how to unlearn it. My mother and grandmother are the same. It's conditioning. I know some women are not like this because they weren't conditioned to have those particular gender behaviours (but were conditioned to have others). While I was raised to be a bit of a doormat, other girls were raised to be very concerned with their appearance, or they were raised to be competitive with other women (which I wasn't).

I see most people as victims of circumstance.

Kjas
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28 Dec 2012, 3:01 am

Urgh.

One of the big ones " A woman only does anything to get a mans attention."

I'm sorry - but not all of us base our self esteem on how many guys want to f*ck us.
Nor is the quality of the guy in question who wants to f*ck us any indication of our worth.

I know plenty of women who do believe those things though, and plenty of men who do too.

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MindBlind
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29 Dec 2012, 4:22 pm

Well, growing up, I did tend to hang out with boys more than girls but that was because most of the kids in my class were boys. That and I was what you would call a "tomboy", so the things I was interested in were things boys are typically interested in/forced to do because of gender roles. Most of the girls that I did know, I had nothing in common with. Still, my lifelong best friend is a girl; I was brought up by mostly women and I do have female friends (other than the one I mentioned earlier) that share my interests. I definitely had more girl-friends when I was in secondary school (mostly because I was getting mainstreamed).

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