Pro-choice or not(Women only)

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My husband and I are happily childfree too, and I agree that most people who are pro-life join the movement out of emotional impulse... they want and love children, and can't seem to accept the fact that there are people out there that simply dont.

What you say is true ThatRedHairedGrrl, pro-lifers don't know a whole lot about the science of pregnancy, and will make stuff up for their cause. It is very uncommen that a late term abortion will take place, and that is because they are only done due to serious health risks.

Pro-lifers need to grow up and understand that something the size of a cheerio doesn't have anymore feeling then a peanut, and if they really want to be 'pro-life' they will premote birth control, sex education, and adoption instead of imposing their sob-stories on other people. If they do this, pro-lifers can help curb the negative stigma they have about being religious, doctor killing, clinic bombing, people who only care about babies being born, and don't care about what happens to them after, just as long as they are breathing.

As I always say, pro-life needs to be more then just getting a baby out of the womb.

Read Don Marquis' essay on abortion. He is "pro-life" for lack of a better term, but actually uses an argument that makes sense, and isn't just an emotional appeal, he also allows for scenarios in which abortion is moral.

Sounds interesting....
Where can I find it? Is there a link?

I don't actually know where it is on the internet, or if it is. I read it in my textbook for a morals and ethics philosophy class, as it was a required reading for the course.

While I do think you are a little off base to generalize pro-lifers like that, I can't talk because I tend to generalize, and you don't want to know the generalizations I have of ProChoicers in my head. But you do bring up some good points.

I do think some of your religious communities are hesitant to promote birth control and sex education because of their ideals. In Catholicism, birth control is a sin. But, many Catholics even disagree with that statement, yet the public stand on Catholicism is abstinence. In addition, since the bulk of your pro-lifers out there (on a huge public platform) is Catholic, to them it's not about the emotion of pain on a cute wittle baby as much as they believe a soul is there. In Catholicism, your dog has no soul but your unborn child (from the moment of contraception I believe) does. In all honesty, one group of people see abortion as a medical procedure and another group of people see it as murder.

I wish I would see more people pro-life than your Catholic Community who is also pro-birth control, pro-sex education, pro-adoption improvements, and pro-quality of life after the child is born. I also wish to see more Pro-Choicers out there about the same things outside of sake of argument. I know it sounds crazy, but the only time I see a Pro Choicer care about these things is during a debate against someone who is Pro-Life. What I read about actions taking place between the two parties (Pro Life and Pro Choice), I only read about actions to change laws regarding abortions, to me that's secondary.

I personally am really pro-kid. I got this email from my sister called, "Why you shouldn't let men buy clothes for the kids," and it was all pictures of babies wearing t-shirts with things written on the shirt. One baby was in a shirt that said, "I'm Pro Choice now that I'm safe."

BTW, anyone who bombs a clinic is obviously not pro life but very psychotic.

Wow, never heard this one . It's beyond my comprehension ability how can somebody reduce love to the desire to breed.

That's where the problems start, IMO. If the discussion remains at a philosophical/ethical level, you don't necessarily have to do anything, except have an opinion. But those who militate for changing the law should consider better the legal, political and social implications. After all, when abortion was made legal there were concrete actions regarding safety, health, training professionals and so on. Apart from some occasional empty political or religious propaganda, I don't hear anybody coming with some coherent plan about what could be done.

It's obvious that abstinence doesn't work and denying reality will not improve anything. Education and prevention don't have a 100% rate of success and probably never will, but more support and awareness might improve the present rate. Shouldn't those against abortion try harder to objectively asses the cause and effect instead of just banning it?

The way the system works now I would feel like fighting - in many cases - for somebody's right to a miserable life of neglect and abuse. It's often the kind of childhood that scars and emotionally cripples people for life and if the mother herself cannot or will not take responsibility somebody should. With abortion illegal that would be the state that makes the decision for her, and I don't think the state does a very good job about it.

I wish I lived in a world where all children were wanted and well taken care of, but I don't think this will ever happen. In the meantime, I try to adapt my views to the reality around me and I think it's important that people who militate for laws against abortion should take full responsibility and come up with some solutions for the future of these children.

I respect your position, Tantybi and it's good to see that at least some people are willing to consider the complexity of the situation instead of just screaming "murder".

Marquis' argument is prolife and fully supports the notion of contraception and sex education.

When I said more, I kinda meant more than one guy. Don't get me wrong, it's great that he is that way. I'm just saying I wish there were more so that most people wouldn't generalize Pro Lifers as a group of people who aren't about those things as it is now. It's like we got a bum stereotype.

I agree with that. Marquis is the only one I have seen with a solid pro life argument (I wrote an essay on his argument, and couldn't find any flaws in it). He wrote his essay on the issue in '89 I believe

I agree with you on a lot of that. I'm the same way wishing this was a world where all children were wanted. While I can understand some of the religious viewpoints and at first impression want to scream murder, I too understand the reality of the world we live in. Not all moms are like me or my mom or my friends. Children don't get to choose their parents, so they already don't get a choice by natural selection. I personally think abortion is murder, but I also don't think it should be banned all together because there are incidents where the mother's health is an issue (and considering my children thus far are girls, I do want them to have the right to live if they are ever unfortunate to experience that, and I pray that they are always healthy and happy).

At this point, I just kinda want to see the law make a little sense and enforce responsibilities. In my earlier posts, I do complain that if I beat up a pregnant woman, I'd be charged with assault against the woman and assault against a minor (the unborn), but she can turn around and have an abortion the next day because the unborn is not a person and does not feel pain. The law does not make sense there. I would be mad if I were pregnant, being Pro Life, that I wouldn't have any legal ways to get justice for my baby if ever assaulted while pregnant. So it's a very complex situation there.

In addition, I don't think abortions for the helluvit should be legal. There are women who've had 10+ abortions in their lifetime. Instead of legalizing abortions, maybe consider at the gov't expense to offer other methods such as getting your tubes tied or something like that (which I'm told can be reversed later on but most insurances won't cover it, so that could change too and make more sense than abortions), and not just for the women, but aren't there reversible procedures that men can go through?

The other thing I'd like to see is less emphasis on the right to abort and more emphasis on making wise decisions (including abstinence, birth control, who you choose to be with intimately, planning for accidents, health, etc.). We are in a day and age where we are being lied to by many people we believe to be truthful like the medical industry. Ethics just don't exist anymore. In addition, compared to our forefathers, we are freaking lazy, blameless, and full of excuses. The only individuals I know with the mentality that they are entitled to a good life without having to work for it are adults living with mom with no prospect of being self sufficient. A lot of the arguments and actions or desired actions I see for Pro Choice and many other campaigns going on now a days sound just like that. I'm entitled to have sex whenever I feel like it with no consequences. Not just with Pro Choice, but also Pro Life gets just as lazy with their arguments (it's murder and it's that simple). Instead of it being about this is the way it should be because women have rights, or because God is right, it should be about here's the problem, what are some ideas for a solution considering the other problems this country faces and let's pick the better ones of them and try them together considering at the very least ethics and humanity in the process. The law has always been about the people, not just God, and in a sense, if we keep the laws for the people and do it ethically, in the end, I believe we will be closer to what God intended for man than if we try to speak for God. While I do believe the government should be about the people, it should also lead people. FOCA isn't just about making abortion a right. It's promoting abortion, which is what I got a problem with. It in no way solves the problem of high abortion rates and high unwanted birth rates. It's only about women's rights. The legislation trying to ban abortions is the same thing. It still won't solve the problems stated either. Doing nothing is surely not going to solve them. To be honest, some problems may not be solved, but at least we can make a dent into a solution by trying more effective methods like increasing the availability of preventive measures including birth control pills and procedures such as tying tubes (as well as the availabilty to undo that when the person is ready to have kids). It would be nice to see some government funding to go into creating healthier ways to do those preventive techniques such as birth control pills that don't cause blood clots, even if you are over the age of 35 and smoke. A patch/shot with less side effects would be nice too.

I'm sorry if I'm unorganized here with thoughts, but I guess in the end my take is that all people, pro lifers and prochoicers need to come up with something better than what they have dished out recently.

Definitely pro-choice. I don't want the government restricting the ability for women to get abortions further. Some Republican states are now banning abortions after 20 weeks and forcing doctors to say life begins at conception and that women are committing murder in consultations. It's despicable.

I personally wouldn't kill my baby, no matter what stage of the development he/she is in. I believe that other people should be able to choose for their selves, but I could never go through with having an abortion. Also, if I ever get to become a doctor, I will not perform abortions.

Personally, I oppose abortion unless if it's in the case the mother has been raped or if her life is in danger.

If abortion was illegal under any circumstance, then women would be obtaining back alley abortions, which can kill women. If it was kept legal. then risk of death due to complications of an abortion would be kept low because it would most likely be performed by a medical professional rather than a dodgy layman.

Pro choice. Every woman should have a say to what goes on about her body. But if a woman was pregnant and she had been carrying the baby for over 4 months or whenever it starts actually looking like a little person, then I think that is mean.

Me too. Love is about the PERSON, not the babies they can make. It's about appreciating and valuing them, and treating them with respect and care. Babies don't really come into the phenomenon that is love.