Slut Walk

Post Reply New Topic

That's a good point spider pig.

Memes, I am saying that a woman's body is her own property. Not sure how you misunderstood that. My body belongs to me, it's my property, therefore no one has the right to damage it or use it without my consent. I think in a very pictorial way, I like to use word pictures to understand things. My body is more important to me than my purse of course, but my point was about advertising availability, or offering something unintentionally.

I was thinking about this and I think what I find confusing is what I've read in body language books. Study of human behaviour shows that to attract a mate a person will show a bit of thigh or a bit of cleavage. There is a reason for this. The male of the species finds such a display sexually attractive.

To display sexual availability a male peacock will display his colourful feathers, humans have their displays of sexual availability too.

If I dress in a way that shows I am sexually available I will get sexual attention the way a peacock will get attention by displaying his beautiful feathers.

So conversely if I don't want sexual attention I won't dress like I'm sexually available. Of course, that won't deter the man determined on assaulting the first woman he sees, but I can't help wondering if some women and men by the way the dress are sending out mixed messages by dressing a certain way. This applies just as much to the buff man in the tight shirt and trousers. He is displaying like a peacock.

I say this as someone who works in advertising. I pick the best selling points of a product or service and try and entice the potential customer with them. The customer would be confused if I advertised the product, but then it turned out that I didn't want to actually sell the product to them. But even if it turned out I wasn't going to sell the product it wouldn't give them the right to steal it anyway.

Again let me emphasise that I am not in any way condoning sexual assault or rape, I am just trying to make sense of certain questions in my mind. And I have no right to tell anyone what to wear. I am discussing the meaning of such clothing and what it signifies whether such a message is intended by the wearer or not.

I've been reading through the comments in this thread again thinking about why this topic means so much to me. The comment about women being sexually assaulted through no fault of their own completely covered in Burkas hit home to me. I was 6 and 8 or 9 the times I was sexually assaulted. The first time through no fault if my own. A six year old wearing regular six year old's clothes can't possibly be guilty of sending the wring message in their clothes. But other tines I think I should have avoided places I was in and then I would have been safer I wouldn't have been trapped, that's probably where my damage control mentality comes from. Now I'm older I feel like there are things I can control like the amount if alcohol I consume so that I always have my wits about me, I can control the messages my clothes send. I try and control what I can.

Obviously if I meet some pervert in broad daylight then there's not a damn thing I can do about it. But I don't want women not being cautious because "it's a man's problem and they shouldn't have to think about it."

It is theft by the way. It's a theft of your right to choose who touches you, where they touch you and how they touch you. That is a theft worse than loosing a purse or a sat nav.

I want people to look out for themselves, their family and friends and to be safe.

Well, if the concern is about sending false messages of sexual availability, there are more things worth considering than just the exposure of skin, like makeup mimicking—and exaggerating—the colors caused by arousal, and the lordosis induced by high heels. There are cultures where women go about their daily business showing most of their bodies, including their bare breasts, and they still have their ways of being modest.

Dressing in a way gained to get sexual attention makes it ok for people to look. It's not an open invitation for anyone who wants to stick it in you.

Very true, that's the way most people want things to work and of course, most people do abide by those rules. It's unfortunate that some bad mannered, brutish people ruin it for everyone else and think they can touch when they should keep their hands to themselves.

And Spiderpig's comment about other cultures everyday acceptance of bare breasts just shows what a skewed view we're up against in our culture. Seems like certain men need reeducated, not all, there's good respectful men out there, but I wonder how in the world we even begin to change the attitude of the misogynists who think women are there to be grabbed as meat. It overwhelms me, maybe I try and take the easy way out by trying to fly under the radar.

It makes me feel sad and confused. Trouble is it seems so ingrained in our culture that men view women as sexual objects, let me reiterate, I don't like the way we're viewed as dehumanized objects rather than lovers and partners. it troubles my brother too, he tells me he doesn't like the way men talk about women at his workplace. Yeah, I feel overwhelmed. It's good expressing this and getting it out and hearing that there are decent people out there.

What I find interesting, is that this bolded part actually doesn't apply everywhere.
For instance, back home that is not the case, yet here it is.

Back home:
I know men who dress like that (and have the body to do) - yet they are taken seriously, both professionally and when they're out for the night.
I know women who dress like that for work and for nights out - and again, they are taken seriously professionally and when they're out for the night.

Here:
When you take the same people, dressed the same and put them here though, something interesting happens.
The men who dress like that (and have the body to do) - yet are not taken seriously - in fact women will simply assume he is not intelligent or hard working and is all brawn, and will actively avoid relationship with them and stick to one nigh stands and FB's. Professionally, they will not really be taken seriously either, again their lack of intelligence is assumed, and they are treated accordingly.
The women who dress like that for work and for nights out - and again, they are definitely *not* taken seriously professionally, to the point that doing it here would be detrimental to their careers. When out for the night, again they are assumed to be "slu*ty" and therefore free game.

What's interesting about this is that the reason that they can dress like that back home is that there is no cultural association with the way someone is dressed and prostitution. Furthermore, the culture and society is not sexually repressed, actually it's quite very free. Probably one of the major factors in rape rates being extremely low there is that they are not sexually repressed.

Which is interesting because here although women don't dress like that - the rape rate is astounding high.

If it was about the way they were dressed, then you would be seeing the opposite trend.
I think people need to look beyond the obvious (like clothes) and really take a look at the culture if they want to get to the bottom of this.

Unless you're queer?

Even that's changing now - 20 years ago it was horrible but it is changing.
I had to keep quiet growing up it's true but in the last 5 to 10 years things have started changing pretty quickly (I've only been back once in the last 5 years). It won't go away overnight, but it's a world away from how bad it was in the 70's and 80's (the time I spoke of to you on the other thread - were it was grounds for exile).

In some circles now it's fine and people are certainly being more free and open about it in public. The state is even paying for individuals to have transgender operations now - thanks to Mariela Castro, she has done an awful lot for queers there. The public is starting to catch up - although obviously those of the older generations or in the countryside are lagging behind that quite significantly.

I always imagine I would have a horrible life in Latin America - more for the way I don't toe the gender line rather than for my sexuality - but the two are kind of related for me.

God Meems! Stop being such a feminist in public!! !

Whether or not someone's clothing makes them appear "sexually available" to anyone else doesn't matter, appearing sexually available(which I don't think is a legit way of viewing someone's clothing, they could be naked and that still doesn't make them sexually available to me) is not consent.

Saying you should avoid certain areas or dressing certain ways is like saying you should make sure you aren't the one who gets raped/assaulted, but rather someone else does.

There's nothing problematic about wearing revealing clothing, there is something problematic about seeing someone in revealing clothing and thinking that person is a willful target.

I don`t think that if a woman dresses provocatively,she wants sex.Everyone has the right to wear what they want.My style is very provocative and colorful,and I will never stop to wear what I want.But do you know what?I don`t dress that way to impress anyone,I just think I look more beautiful that way.

Most women will cry and fight when they're being raped, or somehow show they DON'T want it. If you could say (in case) that they dress ''invitingly'' or as if they ''want it'', but the woman saying no when you start touching her and all, shouldn't that be enough to prove you wrong? So the whole argument of ''well I thought she wanted that/is ok with it'' is a joke.

Besides, how many rapists actually think she's ''asking for it''? Isn't it OBVIOUS that it's just a way of justifying their crime? And modesty doesn't protect you. And even if it would...

Look at other cultures. Many women are forced to stay inside or only go out with a male escort, dressed all in black, hardly any or even no skin exposed. If she looks at men in a ''wrong'' way she's ''asking for it'' and they'll stone her for adultery. This is what such sick reasoning leads to. I shouldn't have to adjust myself to the risk of having some perv attack me, I have every right to dress the way I do.

Furthermore, a lot of bodyparts are being sexualized without a reason. Men can walk around with their back, legs or arms and shoulders exposed and nobody cares. But for us women it means it's slu*ty and apparently our entire body means ''sex''? My shoulders for instance are nothing shameful or obscene. The difference in standards shows there's something wrong.

One could say: Adjust to reality, as the risk is there. That's just how it is. (though I doubt any dress style would help) But how about trying to improve reality and staying true to yourself?

I can't believe this is even a discussion.

1) A individual should be able to walk into a bar, butt naked, have sex with half the people there right on the counter, but when person number 29 comes along and wants to stick it in, and the individual says no, it's a NO!! ! (I'm not concerned with the legalities of walking around naked in public or having sex in public, just the legalities of concent.)

2) After a rape, what an individual was wearing, where the individual was, the individual level of intoxication, or the individual's previous sexual history or behaviour has nothing to do with it. When the individual says no, it's a NO!! !

3) One huge problem with rape is that most often it's not some scary person hiding in the bushes. It's your neighbour, your co-worker, your boyfirend/girlfriend, your friends SO, your parent, your religious leader, your sibling, your cousin, your date, or anybody else you are aquainted with. This leads to a great many people NOT reporting the assault, and even after reporting it, not being believed.

4) As the laws change and evlove, peole are getting better legal protection (in my country, a woman could not legally be raped by her own husband until 1965). This, coupled with rape being talked about and becoming less 'shameful' for the victim, leads to an increase in actually reporting the crime.

5) Please note, not only women are being raped. This is still a huge taboo, and we need to talk about rape not just as men assaulting woman, but also of men being assaulted.

Into the lion's den here.....

The way I see it, if you're going to hang it out, you want it looked at. You have an absolute right to walk down a street stark naked without being molested, but for all our "moral development" we're just bald monkeys and run as much by primitive urges as intellectual. Before I get jumped on, I'm talking about feelings, NOT inexcuseable actions, and have always immediately and respectfully paid attention to a "No".

I personally feel that teen girl and women's magazines have a lot of blame to accept for the excess of sexualisation in society and the skewed perceptions of what "men" find desirable, at least in the opinion of many women.

I WOULDN'T say "nice breasts" to a strange woman, but fail to understand why I am expected to be flattered by a woman grabbing my anatomy and commenting on it ( e.g. butt, arms, and on one occasion, crotch).whether favourably or not, without my permission to do so.

Rape is about power more than sex, and is abhorrent. So is hypocrisy. If you stick cleavage in my face, receptors are going to click & whirr, and my brain will go "mmmmm........boobs". As an animal with the urge to reproduce I'm programmed to look! However as a "moral" person I respect your right to wave it around and still be treated respectfully.

Individualistic and societal attitudes, advertising and media present constant reasons for not respecting this person or that person or group, and being ignorant and ill-mannered, manipulative and intolerant are viewed as desirable traits by too many.

Attitudes are changed generationally, I believe that people should be respected as people, simple as that. Your gender does NOT denote your worthiness as a human being, and the sooner WE teach OUR kids that, the sooner we can have a positive effect on these issues.