calling a woman,''beautiful''
24 Mar 2014, 11:38 am
Quote:
Because unless they know him, understand that his pov is radically different from others', and are listening very carefully and openly, they still won't get what he meant. It's like his word for "orange" is "black", and he's there yelling, "Black and I mean black! Listen carefully! Black!" -- and, of course, almost everyone else will hear "this fellow is nutsy-angry and unreasonably emphatic about black and thinks I'm stupid when all I was doing was offering him a cookie, stay away from him," not "orange". But he means "orange".
Like I said to Otaku, people in the USA are easily offended by slightest provocation.
What is he supposed to do about it then? How is he able to derive this context?
I thought in our society the idea was that we're all innocent until proven guilty.
Quote:
What you're resisting is that social contexts are meaningful and attach to language. People don't hear other people literally; they hear phrases clothed in consensus-meaning -- which changes -- and informed by tone, body language, what the speaker wears, the speaker's age and sex, all sorts of things.
So, what does "be yourself" and "be true to yourself" mean then?
Quote:
Well, this is why AS involves social deficits. People develop and use conversational conventions all the time, and there's broad buy-in about what various phrases mean when said in various tones of voice and in various contexts. That's why they don't have to spend lots of time and energy figuring out what the actual words in the phrases mean. The phrases are mostly just signals, tokens. Only the burnt and legalistic -- and aspergian -- will listen to your every word.
Which we're being punished for unreasonably if any of us violate its' hidden code in which others feel no obligation in explaining. In addition, we have those like the tea party who would get rid of SSDI in a heartbeat. What do you mean by burnt?
http://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.c ... /04/23/42/
I wrote this post a while back on my blog but in short I feel no obligation to follow any social rule that I do not understand, are inaccessible, non-teachable, others refuse to explain, those that conflict with logic and my identity. What it comes down to is one's success depends upon how much one is willing and able to conform, compromise and capitulate. I tried to be something I wasn't a while back and I almost had a nervous breakdown. Besides, let's say others especially employers catch me doing that. They will say that I am selling them a false bill of goods. This is what all of these autism self-help and social skills training miss.
Quote:
The trickier the social context, the blander and more generic the language is likely to be, and the conventions more rigid in when you use it. For instance, if a good-but-not-best-friend's father dies, you say something that amounts to "I'm so sorry for your loss", and throw in a little eulogy, some gilded memory, and say, "Please let me know if there's anything I can do, anything I can help out with." If the bereft is someone you know very well, then after you hear about the death and go through "How are you," and hear about all the relief that this awful man who's been out of his mind the last three years is dead, you can say, "Good. Good, you need this rest, I'm glad it went easily."
Yet, he is expected to learn this context with no assistance and no one's obligation to assist including financial assistance. What does this tell me? It tells me that the American dream is an utter lie.
Quote:
There isn't; people get offended all the time. But there's a difference between being out in the weeds where you're likely to offend most days you talk and having a good feel for social conventions, so that you don't often offend. And apologizing sometimes helps. It's also true that some people are just very, very insecure and will be offended by almost anything, and for that I rely on coworkers/friends saying, "oh, some people are just looking for excuses to be unhappy."
What you said is very accurate.
Quote:
It helps also to become aware of how you're likely to offend just by existing. I'm from a big city that has a serious attitude (and with some reason). For decades I've lived in a part of the country that's desperately insecure about, and resentful of, what people think of it on the coasts. My accent and manner have never gone away, and whatever ASishness I have doesn't help. The moment I start talking, I'll put some people's backs up, and they'll think: "She thinks she's better than us." How I can compound the social error about a millionfold: Start talking about awesome thing on east or west coast. How I can turn a collegial relationship downright icy: allude to the fact that no such awesomeness exists for three hundred miles around our little burg. That will put me on the outs almost permanently. The correct follow-on phrase to mention of awesomeness elsewhere: "But that sort of thing gets exhausting after a while. It's a relief to come back here and get back to normal life, get some peace and quiet."
After such a long time here, my attitude is largely "f**k it", because in fact those things are awesome and I'm sick to death of people's geographical insecurity. But I'm also aware of alienating people by saying so. And in a sensitive negotiation with someone local, I'll bring along someone who's local to do the talking -- they've got a whole secret regional language of manners that I'll never be able to speak.
After such a long time here, my attitude is largely "f**k it", because in fact those things are awesome and I'm sick to death of people's geographical insecurity. But I'm also aware of alienating people by saying so. And in a sensitive negotiation with someone local, I'll bring along someone who's local to do the talking -- they've got a whole secret regional language of manners that I'll never be able to speak.
If one's success depends upon learning this regional language of manners and one can't learn this regional language of manners then how can one succeed in this region? What if this language applies to the country as a whole? How can one succeed, live his life and pursue happiness at all?
Why even bother then? What is the point?
24 Mar 2014, 12:27 pm
I've always looked at conversation/communication as a puzzle. Mainly because it puzzled me when I was young. I'd hear my mother and one of her "friends" talking , for example. On the surface it would be a friendly conversation, but many times my mother would be mad after she and her "friend" parted. So I asked my mom questions about what she and her friend had been discussing, and why she was mad when they both said only nice things.
Once I learned that people could say one thing and mean another, I guess one of my earliest obsessions in life was figuring out this "hidden" language that it seemed everyone else in the world but me was speaking. I was never great at it (still am not), but I'm better at than I would have been had I not known at an early age that it existed.
What I'm saying is that, no matter how illogical it seems to us, it is not everyone else's responsibility to learn to speak "our" language. It is our responsibility to learn to speak theirs. Ask a parent, a sibling, a friend, to help "translate" for awhile. Watch movies - the characters' true motives are generally revealed at the end. Then watch the movie again, if you need to. You may never become a native speaker of NT-speak, but the more you learn, the fewer dangerous pitfalls you will encounter. It's worth a try, right?
24 Mar 2014, 12:46 pm
Eureka13 wrote:
What I'm saying is that, no matter how illogical it seems to us, it is not everyone else's responsibility to learn to speak "our" language. It is our responsibility to learn to speak theirs. Ask a parent, a sibling, a friend, to help "translate" for awhile. Watch movies - the characters' true motives are generally revealed at the end. Then watch the movie again, if you need to. You may never become a native speaker of NT-speak, but the more you learn, the fewer dangerous pitfalls you will encounter. It's worth a try, right?
Eureka, how do I put this to you exactly? (rhetorical question) I slightly agree and I slightly disagree. Here is my reasoning.
a. If others feel no obligation in instructing you in their language and they refuse to instruct you in this language and help walk you through it then can one learn the language?
b. The second issue is identity. Would I have to put on a fake persona and pretend to be something I was not? Let's say others catch me at this especially employers. I will be accused of selling a false bill of goods. How does one live his life with nobility, truth and virtue?
c. What if there were certain beliefs of the social veneer that I disagree with?
http://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.c ... /attitude/
http://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.c ... f-control/
d. Can society's belief system every be flawed and/or broken? Is conforming to certain beliefs no matter how accepted and popular always the noble, logical and good thing? For me, it isn't just a matter of how to conform but what to conform to and why we should do so? How do we live with virtue and honor? How shall we all then live?
24 Mar 2014, 1:26 pm
I approach it from the perspective "who is the majority?" and "who sets the conventions?" and "why am I always the odd one out?" I know I can't make someone else "think like me" so my best bet for getting along in the world (which allows me to get/have/keep a job and be self-sufficient) is to learn the language of where I live. I will never speak it as well as NTs do, but I figure if I can at least understand it better, I'm increasing my chances of fitting in.
I don't consider it anyone else's responsibility that *I* be able to get along somehow in this freaky world, so that makes it my responsibility, and mine alone. Truly, the most useful thing I ever learned is that "other people speak a different language." If I had found myself dropped on the shores of a country where no one spoke English when I was a young adult, it would be about the same scenario. I couldn't expect everyone else in that country to learn my language, so my only hope would be to learn theirs.
I spent a lot of time as a teen and a young adult not participating in conversations except by listening and trying to detect the undercurrents. Again, I have never become proficient at speaking that way myself, but I've learned a few common social conventions that help me to be better received when I do speak up. I guess it fails to annoy me that I have to do that since I've always treated it as a game, and to this day, playing with words and trying to insert subtextual meaning (and decipher same in others' words) gives me a lot of entertainment. I also just go with a somewhat goofy persona, so that people who know me even a little have come to expect me to say odd/inappropriate things and to ask a lot of questions so that I can pinpoint their meaning.
24 Mar 2014, 4:09 pm
Eureka13 wrote:
I approach it from the perspective "who is the majority?" and "who sets the conventions?" and "why am I always the odd one out?" I know I can't make someone else "think like me" so my best bet for getting along in the world (which allows me to get/have/keep a job and be self-sufficient) is to learn the language of where I live. I will never speak it as well as NTs do, but I figure if I can at least understand it better, I'm increasing my chances of fitting in.
I don't consider it anyone else's responsibility that *I* be able to get along somehow in this freaky world, so that makes it my responsibility, and mine alone. Truly, the most useful thing I ever learned is that "other people speak a different language." If I had found myself dropped on the shores of a country where no one spoke English when I was a young adult, it would be about the same scenario. I couldn't expect everyone else in that country to learn my language, so my only hope would be to learn theirs.
I spent a lot of time as a teen and a young adult not participating in conversations except by listening and trying to detect the undercurrents. Again, I have never become proficient at speaking that way myself, but I've learned a few common social conventions that help me to be better received when I do speak up. I guess it fails to annoy me that I have to do that since I've always treated it as a game, and to this day, playing with words and trying to insert subtextual meaning (and decipher same in others' words) gives me a lot of entertainment. I also just go with a somewhat goofy persona, so that people who know me even a little have come to expect me to say odd/inappropriate things and to ask a lot of questions so that I can pinpoint their meaning.
I don't consider it anyone else's responsibility that *I* be able to get along somehow in this freaky world, so that makes it my responsibility, and mine alone. Truly, the most useful thing I ever learned is that "other people speak a different language." If I had found myself dropped on the shores of a country where no one spoke English when I was a young adult, it would be about the same scenario. I couldn't expect everyone else in that country to learn my language, so my only hope would be to learn theirs.
I spent a lot of time as a teen and a young adult not participating in conversations except by listening and trying to detect the undercurrents. Again, I have never become proficient at speaking that way myself, but I've learned a few common social conventions that help me to be better received when I do speak up. I guess it fails to annoy me that I have to do that since I've always treated it as a game, and to this day, playing with words and trying to insert subtextual meaning (and decipher same in others' words) gives me a lot of entertainment. I also just go with a somewhat goofy persona, so that people who know me even a little have come to expect me to say odd/inappropriate things and to ask a lot of questions so that I can pinpoint their meaning.
Eureka, do you at least understand where I am coming from and what my objections are and why I have them. Practically, it does look like you're right though. I will agree in a practical sense. In a more philosophical and moral sense I do not. Of course I would not curse in a job interview and I would use proper hygiene. I would not streak naked across Yankee Stadium. I will even practice my handshake to make it a bit better. If I burp at the dinner table I will say "excuse me." I will chew with my mouth full and I will pick up after myself and will force myself to do these things.
This is where I have a problem and I draw the line. The problem I have is being forced to put on a persona that he is not. He has to pretend to be something he is not especially in a job interview. One has to put on a persona as a salesman when one may not be so.
Quote:
I don't consider it anyone else's responsibility that *I* be able to get along somehow in this freaky world, so that makes it my responsibility, and mine alone.
I simply do not agree especially with how things are structured in today's world.
First, other societies in today's world only want people who are useful to them so it is true that I could leave my respective society but I could never enter another one. It is like the song "Hotel California." I can check out but I can never leave.
Second, http://whyifailedinamerica1.wordpress.c ... 03/15/229/, and when you said this right here you've helped me to prove the point I was making when I wrote this blog post.
Third, Because of the first reason one is forced to be under the conditions of the culture he was born in with no agency even though he disagrees with certain aspects in a very strong way. He has no say in the culture and any other option but to compromise his own values and principles more than likely would lead to negative outcomes. It is like Fnord said, "Conform or Die."
Fourth, it's like the Mafia when they do protection racket. It is an offer one can't refuse.
If one had other choices with positive outcomes that he could make then I would be on board so because of how the world works today I have to dissent and disagree.
25 Mar 2014, 1:10 am
LKL wrote:
A heterosexual woman generally isn't going to ask a man if he thinks that she is pretty unless she's already in a relationship with him, or wants to be.
I dunno I had a classmate ask me that once in college and I simply ignored her. I was too drawn in the topic of plate tectonics in geology class that her asking me that was irrelevant since it had nothing to do with taking notes in class.
_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList
25 Mar 2014, 1:54 pm
cube, I do get where you're coming from. I also get tired of "playing a part." I have to do it most of the time at work (although I have a couple of sympathetic co-workers who I can let loose with briefly from time to time), I have to do it part of the time with family, a little less with good friends. I have one or two very good friends who, for the most part, I don't have to play a part at all.
I once tried working as a salesperson. It was such a disaster, I have forever since avoided anything at all related to sales. For the last couple of decades, I've had a job where I have to deal with the public. But it's not all day, every day, and how I relate to the public is more or less as code enforcement. I don't have to talk them into anything; I just have to convince them that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to how the laws/codes are written, and why they need to comply. A much better fit for my personality.
So, what I'm saying is:
1. Yes, it sucks.
2. Unless you can change the thinking of an entire society, it is best to find a way to fit within the existing framework.
3. It can be done, and it does get easier with time.
25 Mar 2014, 6:35 pm
Eureka13 wrote:
cube, I do get where you're coming from. I also get tired of "playing a part." I have to do it most of the time at work (although I have a couple of sympathetic co-workers who I can let loose with briefly from time to time), I have to do it part of the time with family, a little less with good friends. I have one or two very good friends who, for the most part, I don't have to play a part at all.
I once tried working as a salesperson. It was such a disaster, I have forever since avoided anything at all related to sales. For the last couple of decades, I've had a job where I have to deal with the public. But it's not all day, every day, and how I relate to the public is more or less as code enforcement. I don't have to talk them into anything; I just have to convince them that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to how the laws/codes are written, and why they need to comply. A much better fit for my personality.
So, what I'm saying is:
1. Yes, it sucks.
2. Unless you can change the thinking of an entire society, it is best to find a way to fit within the existing framework.
3. It can be done, and it does get easier with time.
I once tried working as a salesperson. It was such a disaster, I have forever since avoided anything at all related to sales. For the last couple of decades, I've had a job where I have to deal with the public. But it's not all day, every day, and how I relate to the public is more or less as code enforcement. I don't have to talk them into anything; I just have to convince them that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to how the laws/codes are written, and why they need to comply. A much better fit for my personality.
So, what I'm saying is:
1. Yes, it sucks.
2. Unless you can change the thinking of an entire society, it is best to find a way to fit within the existing framework.
3. It can be done, and it does get easier with time.
I will be a civilized human; there is no question about this. I agree and follow the basic rules of civility. In fact, I wish more people in the USA would be civil and no I'm not perfect. I'm willing to learn to shake hands better and I do look at the bridge between someone's eyes to make eye contact. I have no qualms or issues with doing these things and learning these things and learning whatever I have to learn to demonstrate respect.
Where I have major objections is being forced to pretend to be something I'm am not. It isn't just me this is for all of us. We are demanded to put on this persona of this extraverted, salesperson, personality. It isn't a matter of social skills, manners and rules of civility it is about one's identity and one's soul. Guess what, if we do this we're caught considered fake and deceptive yet if we do not then we are considered lacking social skills in this context. We're damned if we do and we're damned if we do not.
So,
Do and caught = deceptive
Don't do = lacking social skills in this context.
We're punished either way.
Heads we lose, tails we lose.
25 Mar 2014, 8:14 pm
cubedemon6073 wrote:
Eureka13 wrote:
cube, I do get where you're coming from. I also get tired of "playing a part." I have to do it most of the time at work (although I have a couple of sympathetic co-workers who I can let loose with briefly from time to time), I have to do it part of the time with family, a little less with good friends. I have one or two very good friends who, for the most part, I don't have to play a part at all.
I once tried working as a salesperson. It was such a disaster, I have forever since avoided anything at all related to sales. For the last couple of decades, I've had a job where I have to deal with the public. But it's not all day, every day, and how I relate to the public is more or less as code enforcement. I don't have to talk them into anything; I just have to convince them that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to how the laws/codes are written, and why they need to comply. A much better fit for my personality.
So, what I'm saying is:
1. Yes, it sucks.
2. Unless you can change the thinking of an entire society, it is best to find a way to fit within the existing framework.
3. It can be done, and it does get easier with time.
I once tried working as a salesperson. It was such a disaster, I have forever since avoided anything at all related to sales. For the last couple of decades, I've had a job where I have to deal with the public. But it's not all day, every day, and how I relate to the public is more or less as code enforcement. I don't have to talk them into anything; I just have to convince them that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to how the laws/codes are written, and why they need to comply. A much better fit for my personality.
So, what I'm saying is:
1. Yes, it sucks.
2. Unless you can change the thinking of an entire society, it is best to find a way to fit within the existing framework.
3. It can be done, and it does get easier with time.
I will be a civilized human; there is no question about this. I agree and follow the basic rules of civility. In fact, I wish more people in the USA would be civil and no I'm not perfect. I'm willing to learn to shake hands better and I do look at the bridge between someone's eyes to make eye contact. I have no qualms or issues with doing these things and learning these things and learning whatever I have to learn to demonstrate respect.
Where I have major objections is being forced to pretend to be something I'm am not. It isn't just me this is for all of us. We are demanded to put on this persona of this extraverted, salesperson, personality. It isn't a matter of social skills, manners and rules of civility it is about one's identity and one's soul. Guess what, if we do this we're caught considered fake and deceptive yet if we do not then we are considered lacking social skills in this context. We're damned if we do and we're damned if we do not.
So,
Do and caught = deceptive
Don't do = lacking social skills in this context.
We're punished either way.
Heads we lose, tails we lose.
_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList
