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Sexism against guys

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Jainaday
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27 Sep 2008, 8:45 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Jainaday wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Can someone please help me understand WHY there is all this competition between Men and Women???
I really dont understand this Battle of the Sexes and where it came from :? . I honestly DO wonder if gender feminism
has a role in encouraging it by convincing women that men are out to oppress them....


Being born into the Aristocracy pre-french-revolution didn't mean you were "out to oppress" people, but it almost certainly meant you did oppress people.


I suppose so but as for me I most definitely was Not born into ANYTHING equivalent to the prerevolutionary french aristocracy and its ludicrous to compare mens status in contemporary America relative to womens with antiquarian Aristocracy!


I did not mean to suggest they were the same, only that members of both unintentionally engage in oppression.



Haliphron
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29 Sep 2008, 12:40 pm

Jainaday wrote:
I did not mean to suggest they were the same, only that members of both unintentionally engage in oppression.


How do men as a group in contemporary America unintentionally engage in oppression?



Xanderbeanz
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29 Sep 2008, 1:30 pm

by generally ogling attractive females, making them feel uncomfortable...

"hey doll...nice cans!"

or something like that.



LKL
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29 Sep 2008, 2:16 pm

That's more active.
Unintentional would be things like accepting a higher paycheck than a woman for the same amount of work; accepting a promotion that should have gone to a more more qualified woman; being called on more than girls in classrooms, even by women teachers; being viewed as more competent than similarly competent by complete strangers; getting more credit for one's own ideas; etc.



Xanderbeanz
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29 Sep 2008, 3:44 pm

i hope that anti discrimination laws do at least something to combat some of that stuff.x



Haliphron
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29 Sep 2008, 4:22 pm

LKL wrote:
That's more active.
Unintentional would be things like accepting a higher paycheck than a woman for the same amount of work; accepting a promotion that should have gone to a more more qualified woman; being called on more than girls in classrooms, even by women teachers; being viewed as more competent than similarly competent by complete strangers; getting more credit for one's own ideas; etc.


In ALL the schools that I went to, I noticed male teachers calling on female students more than male students. At my first HS(which was private)there were several female teachers who not only ridiculed boys and men but actively showed favoritism towards the girls. I lost my first job because of 2 WOMEN who decided they didnt like me and made false accusations to a MALE boss. Its becoming increasingly common, especially in academic workplaces(this was a university lab), for men in positions of authority to side with women in he said/she said issues.



Haliphron
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29 Sep 2008, 4:25 pm

Xanderbeanz wrote:
by generally ogling attractive females, making them feel uncomfortable...

"hey doll...nice cans!"

or something like that.


What about attractive females who dress sexy intentionally to make single guys jealous? Or post semi-nude
glamour shots on the internet while stating that they're not available? You know, the whole "you want me but you cant have me"
ploy. If you dress provocatively you're going to get unwanted attention. Besides, women can and do oggle guys sometimes and I dont hear guys complaining that they're being *oppressed* or even sexually harassed.



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29 Sep 2008, 7:58 pm

Xanderbeanz wrote:
by generally ogling attractive females, making them feel uncomfortable...

"hey doll...nice cans!"

or something like that.


That would not be oppression though.

Ogling has nothing to do with the empowerment of one group at the expense or marginilizing of the other. It instead has everything to do with..."wow shes hot." or "I'm horny."

And as someone stated...women can and do ogle male bits...its just less talked about.



deathchibi
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29 Sep 2008, 10:35 pm

Haliphron wrote:
LKL wrote:
That's more active.
Unintentional would be things like accepting a higher paycheck than a woman for the same amount of work; accepting a promotion that should have gone to a more more qualified woman; being called on more than girls in classrooms, even by women teachers; being viewed as more competent than similarly competent by complete strangers; getting more credit for one's own ideas; etc.


In ALL the schools that I went to, I noticed male teachers calling on female students more than male students. At my first HS(which was private)there were several female teachers who not only ridiculed boys and men but actively showed favoritism towards the girls. I lost my first job because of 2 WOMEN who decided they didnt like me and made false accusations to a MALE boss. Its becoming increasingly common, especially in academic workplaces(this was a university lab), for men in positions of authority to side with women in he said/she said issues.



basicaly the same here but the female teachers do it too.


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Eggman
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30 Sep 2008, 2:31 am

sexism is wrong...end of line.



Jainaday
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30 Sep 2008, 3:06 am

Haliphron wrote:
Xanderbeanz wrote:
by generally ogling attractive females, making them feel uncomfortable...

"hey doll...nice cans!"

or something like that.


What about attractive females who dress sexy intentionally to make single guys jealous? Or post semi-nude
glamour shots on the internet while stating that they're not available? You know, the whole "you want me but you cant have me"
ploy.


That's legitimate behavior. The fact that it's not classy doesn't justify abuse; your libido is your own responsibility, no one else's.

Quote:
If you dress provocatively you're going to get unwanted attention. Besides, women can and do oggle guys sometimes and I dont hear guys complaining that they're being *oppressed* or even sexually harassed.


a) when men are harassing women, there's a much stronger undercurrent of potential force and/or other physical risk.

b) this certainly doesn't only happen to women who are dressed "provocatively."
consider. . .

c) when it does bother men that they are oogled, groped, or whatever, there are strong cultural forces in play that stop them from admitting that it bothers them; it's not "manly" to be uncomfortable with sexual advance, unless, of course, the woman is "ugly". We certainly need to work on changing this too.



Haliphron
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30 Sep 2008, 11:53 am

Jainaday wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Xanderbeanz wrote:
by generally ogling attractive females, making them feel uncomfortable...

"hey doll...nice cans!"

or something like that.


What about attractive females who dress sexy intentionally to make single guys jealous? Or post semi-nude
glamour shots on the internet while stating that they're not available? You know, the whole "you want me but you cant have me"
ploy.


That's legitimate behavior. The fact that it's not classy doesn't justify abuse; your libido is your own responsibility, no one else's.

Quote:
If you dress provocatively you're going to get unwanted attention. Besides, women can and do oggle guys sometimes and I dont hear guys complaining that they're being *oppressed* or even sexually harassed.


a) when men are harassing women, there's a much stronger undercurrent of potential force and/or other physical risk.

b) this certainly doesn't only happen to women who are dressed "provocatively."
consider. . .

c) when it does bother men that they are oogled, groped, or whatever, there are strong cultural forces in play that stop them from admitting that it bothers them; it's not "manly" to be uncomfortable with sexual advance, unless, of course, the woman is "ugly". We certainly need to work on changing this too.




First of all, I completely agree that NO ONE has the right to touch someone elses body without that someone's permission.
But I find your response to be outrageous. I have the RIGHT to put my eyes wherever I damn well feel like! You CANNOT dictate to me not to stare at someone I find sexually attractive. If it makes her uncomfortable thats HER problem: her feelings are HER'S to deal with just like my feelings about her clothing are my problem.You can control how you dress but you cannot control how other people are going to react to it! Dressing a certain way WILL result in unwanted attention; if you dont like it thats tough sh1t! Life isnt fair, DEAL WITH IT.



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30 Sep 2008, 1:37 pm

There's a difference between noticing and staring. Personally I'm uncomfortable with being stared at, regardless of whether there's a sexualized component to it or not. It makes me wonder if I'm being terribly gauche and if I'm about to be made fun of (it does happen). If there's a sexualized component it reminds me of being sexually abused when I was younger.

Basically, when you stare at someone without regard to how that person might feel about it (and different people feel different ways, regardless of whether they're male or female), you're dehumanizing them. When you look, but take into account they might not be ok with it, and look away if it turns out they're not ok, you're being considerate.

Please be considerate. Too much staring can drive people away. And sometimes that's what the staring is for.

***

I've read that men don't stare at other men unless they're trying to provoke a fight. True? If so, how would staring at women be any different?



Haliphron
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30 Sep 2008, 2:39 pm

Anemone wrote:
There's a difference between noticing and staring. Personally I'm uncomfortable with being stared at, regardless of whether there's a sexualized component to it or not. It makes me wonder if I'm being terribly gauche and if I'm about to be made fun of (it does happen). If there's a sexualized component it reminds me of being sexually abused when I was younger.

Basically, when you stare at someone without regard to how that person might feel about it (and different people feel different ways, regardless of whether they're male or female), you're dehumanizing them. When you look, but take into account they might not be ok with it, and look away if it turns out they're not ok, you're being considerate.

Please be considerate. Too much staring can drive people away. And sometimes that's what the staring is for.

***

I've read that men don't stare at other men unless they're trying to provoke a fight. True? If so, how would staring at women be any different?



Ive actually had women stare at me with nasty looks of disapproval on their faces :evil: . At first I thought if I ignore it they would stop but what REALLY worked is when I actually walked up close to them and in one case I shouted at her: "what the f_ck are you staring at b***h??" she replied "nothing!" and promptly stopped. Im AMAZED that a woman who is smaller and weaker than me would do something so confrontational knowning that I could slap her around if I wanted to. So in conclusion, staring certainly is Rude, Inconsiderate, and often confrontational but it really isnt "sexual harassment" or "(male)oppression".



hale_bopp
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30 Sep 2008, 2:49 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Jainaday wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Xanderbeanz wrote:
by generally ogling attractive females, making them feel uncomfortable...

"hey doll...nice cans!"

or something like that.


What about attractive females who dress sexy intentionally to make single guys jealous? Or post semi-nude
glamour shots on the internet while stating that they're not available? You know, the whole "you want me but you cant have me"
ploy.


That's legitimate behavior. The fact that it's not classy doesn't justify abuse; your libido is your own responsibility, no one else's.

Quote:
If you dress provocatively you're going to get unwanted attention. Besides, women can and do oggle guys sometimes and I dont hear guys complaining that they're being *oppressed* or even sexually harassed.


a) when men are harassing women, there's a much stronger undercurrent of potential force and/or other physical risk.

b) this certainly doesn't only happen to women who are dressed "provocatively."
consider. . .

c) when it does bother men that they are oogled, groped, or whatever, there are strong cultural forces in play that stop them from admitting that it bothers them; it's not "manly" to be uncomfortable with sexual advance, unless, of course, the woman is "ugly". We certainly need to work on changing this too.




First of all, I completely agree that NO ONE has the right to touch someone elses body without that someone's permission.
But I find your response to be outrageous. I have the RIGHT to put my eyes wherever I damn well feel like! You CANNOT dictate to me not to stare at someone I find sexually attractive. If it makes her uncomfortable thats HER problem: her feelings are HER'S to deal with just like my feelings about her clothing are my problem.You can control how you dress but you cannot control how other people are going to react to it! Dressing a certain way WILL result in unwanted attention; if you dont like it thats tough sh1t! Life isnt fair, DEAL WITH IT.


I think both of you have points, no need to be so bloody angry about it..



hale_bopp
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30 Sep 2008, 2:53 pm

Anemone wrote:
Ive actually had women stare at me with nasty looks of disapproval on their faces :evil: . At first I thought if I ignore it they would stop but what REALLY worked is when I actually walked up close to them and in one case I shouted at her: "what the f_ck are you staring at b***h??"


LOL, I agree, staring is very rude regardless of why. I personally am more offended when someone gives me look that implies "what the f**k are you?" as opposed to a look from a guy. I don't really see how guys looking is really a negative thing unless the guy does it to make her feel uncomfortable on purpose. Looks I get to make me feel uncomfortable on purpose really pis me off, but 99% of the time it's nothing to do with sex or sexism, it's just arrogant jerks male and female.