on the subject of theory of mind

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no one is responsible for misleading someone if they don't do it knowingly. many of us will have no clue what a standard interpretation of any behavior is.

And those of us who aren't sure of the standard interpretation tend to be aware of that, I think, and therefore don't carry on blindly with assumptions.

A simplified example to illustrate how I see it working:

NT1 has their head in their hands and looks as though they might be sobbing, but it's hard to tell as their face is covered. NT2 goes on autopilot and approaches, puts a hand on NT1's shoulder and asks if they are okay. NT1 looks up, startled, then laughs and says "oh yeah I was just deep in concentration! Sorry, it probably looked like I was crying! Haha". NT1 and NT2 have a chuckle and carry on a conversation.

OR

NT1 has their head in their hands and looks as though they might be sobbing, but it's hard to tell as their face is covered. AS considers whether to approach or not - are they sobbing, or maybe something else? They could be concentrating, or tired. They could be sobbing but would rather be left alone. There are too many possible options so AS decides to walk away. They have missed a potential opportunity to bond with NT1.

yt, that's EXACTLY what I meant. Thank you for the PERFECT example, I wasn't able to produce one clear enough so I gave up trying. I don't think even so-called AS experts/professionals understand how it works as clearly as you and I do.

This is, by the way, one of the major problems I have with my AS, and therefore in my life.

Yes, we think a lot, because it's the only tool we have. NTs have also intuition and ToM. "goes on autopilot" was an excellent way to say it.

I think that all of us - both NT and ASD - have difficulty with Theory of Mind at some point or another.

I actually have a funny story that's sort of related to Theory of Mind -

When I was about 12, my dad and stepmom tried going to church regularly every Sunday, and they wanted ME to come too. For me, this meant sitting in a pew for an hour and a half in uncomfortable, ill - fitting, scratchy clothes, having to talk with a bunch of people I didn't even know, and worst of all, I had to leave Dory (my stuffed dolphin who went everywhere with me) at home. I also had the option of leaving her in the Car, but no way was I going to leave her in a hot Car all alone for an hour and a half.

Anyway, one Sunday, when my dad, stepmom, and I got out of the Car and were walking inside, the priest of the church was outside greeting people. She came up, greeted me, and told me that she was glad my folks and I could make it.

I looked up at her and said, "Dory wanted to come, too."

"Who's Dory?" she asked, confused.

"She's my dolphin." I answered. The priest looked even more confused than ever.

Even at the time, I realized that I should have told her that Dory was a STUFFED dolphin and not a real one, but I was having too much fun watching how confused she got. I'm so bad.

Glad my example was a good one - I made it up on the spot but was quite happy with how well it illustrated what I think we are trying to say.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4677875.html#4677875

In essence this extreme example ( persian's) is what it's all about . ^

I don't think I would have carried the first anecdote out, but the second example hits home.

With enough experience in life you eventually 'stop doing that'.

The tendency is there to think direct and not apply 'other' social imaginations or scenarios. The "assumption" is at face value. It's Sally Anne-ing it.

Body language is greatly overrated by aspies. It's often not enough info for an NT or Aspie, and often feigned too. Eg they tell you to check if the eyes are smiling too, to see if the smile is genuine, but we've all read that article and we all know to close our eyes a bit to make a feigned smile look more genuine.

I have walked up to people and asked them what was wrong or if they are okay. Then I leave them alone when they say they are fine or tell me to mind my own business or not worry about it. Then I would get accused of not caring about anyone when I started to ignore them. They get mad at me for trying to care about them and then I learned I am to ignore them and pretend I don't notice and they got mad at me about that too. Is that the AS or just them giving me a hard time. My shrink said I was doing it all wrong because they were not my friends and I was butting in but yet other kids do the same to me and I didn't tell them to mind their own business. Maybe it's body language I wasn't reading or something or social cues I wasn't reading so kids got mad at me about it. But adults are more mature than that so it makes my life easier. I can see why an aspie wouldn't bother walking up to a person and asking them what is wrong because what if the person gets mad at them for trying to be caring.

I am not sure what I did wrong and I ca relate to what Joe90 says about people giving her lectures about her behavior and they give other people excuses about theirs. Whenever she does something wrong, it's bad but yet it's okay for others to do something wrong.