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Sweetleaf
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29 Oct 2016, 3:14 pm

Seizures caused by anything are harmful, the relaxants help reduce the harm but there is no such thing as a 100% harmless seizure. Also there are documented side effects of course which ones an individual experience can vary. I spent some time in a psych ward and a patient there was undergoing ECT, its definitely not a quick painless procedure she would be nauseous and have to throw up and have to lay down because of her head hurting and she was making weird involuntary facial movements.

It is possible the treatment helps some people, but it is risky and has its own side effects which may or may not be worth whatever benefit it might cause. It should be up to the individual to decide...but it would be wrong to try and convince someone by making it sound like some quick and easy fix.


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Sweetleaf
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29 Oct 2016, 3:19 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Am not talking about "effectiveness". I was talking about risk/benefit. This one article is not enough to make me warm up to the idea of shock treatment. The kid in the story is severely autistic, they already tried everything else, and his particular expression of autism presented a clear and present danger to his life and health (because of he would attack his own body). Severity, lack of other options, and urgent danger. That combination made it logical for them to roll the dice on shock therapy. But most of the rest of us don't have that unique combination of factors. So no cure at all is better than taking a chance on shock therapy IMHO.


I agree, in this case it seems it's being used as a last resort with the concern the child could severely injure or kill them-self...but that hardly means it would be beneficial for the majority of autistics and when it comes to children it should never be anything but an absolute last resort since they're probably more sensitive to any immediate and longer term side effects of ECT. I myself wouldn't benefit from it I am quite certain


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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 29 Oct 2016, 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

androbot01
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29 Oct 2016, 3:19 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
... a patient there was undergoing ECT, its definitely not a quick painless procedure she would be nauseous and have to throw up and have to lay down because of her head hurting and she was making weird involuntary facial movements.

That sounds awful. But still, having most medical procedures is unpleasant, but we still undergo them. Cancer treatments are terrible. I agree it should be up to the individual and of course they should be free of coercion.



Sweetleaf
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29 Oct 2016, 3:24 pm

androbot01 wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
... a patient there was undergoing ECT, its definitely not a quick painless procedure she would be nauseous and have to throw up and have to lay down because of her head hurting and she was making weird involuntary facial movements.

That sounds awful. But still, having most medical procedures is unpleasant, but we still undergo them. Cancer treatments are terrible. I agree it should be up to the individual and of course they should be free of coercion.


Yeah, also those are immediate side effects so they probably go away, but yeah one would have to remain hospitalized for the duration of the ECT procedures as it's usually more than one treatment because it will incapacitate them and probably not be the most pleasant experience so good to be under supervision they also have to monitor them to make sure they don't have a particularly adverse reaction and things like that to.


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30 Oct 2016, 6:54 am

naturalplastic wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
if ECT works, then why not TCMS with less collateral damage?



What is "ECT"?Did you mean "EST" (electroshock therapy)?And what is TCMS?


Electroconvulsive therapy=ECT, another way of saying electroshock therapy.
Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation uses a powerful magnetic coil to excite specific brain parts with focused magnetic current, in a far gentler resetting of neural function than ECT which is literally like a sledgehammer in comparison.



Tawaki
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30 Oct 2016, 12:41 pm

Noca wrote:
I read the article and the choice is so obviously clear in favour for ECT for autistic children who would otherwise seriously injure themselves. The injuries alone far exceed any risks of short term memory loss or the risks associated with general anesthesia. The antipsychotics handed out like candy for every condition under the sun have a worse risk profile in many cases than general anesthesia or ECT.

The treatment should definitely be an option readily accessible to those who need it. I guess the problem with the stigma comes from the inability to discern that short term memory loss and the risks associated with general anesthesia are simply not equal to serious injury or death from suicide. I too have made this mistake possesing this flawed logic.


The big deal university hospital just started offering ECT for children and to help treat severe self harm in autism.

I have had ECT offered to me (forcefully) during my manias. I refused. I'm scared of the memory loss, but I have never been on long term antipsychotics.

IF my child was turning his head into hamburger during every melt down, and IF nothing in a long line of treatments did diddle squat and IF the only other choice would be loaded up on Risperdal or something similar...I'd give ECT a whorl. Antipsychotics are just terrible for the long term with all their side affects.

It's not like everyone will be running out to do this therapy. A full series (about 12 treatments) is around $30K were I live. Insurance will be really looking at who gets it as a treatment option.



Sheila Nye
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30 Oct 2016, 12:53 pm

Shock for autism? Just no.

As far as "muscle relaxants" being available, in India and other places where they aren't available, it is "permissible" to give shock without them.

Benefit vs. risk ratio is another way for docs and researchers to justify their actions.

In general, teen brains are not as developed as adult brains and legally lack the ability of consent.


Behavior is communication. Investigate the enviroment for extreme sensory or other issues.


(I am also against ABA. The cohersive nature of ABA and the nature of shock treatment are similar).



naturalplastic
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30 Oct 2016, 3:05 pm

auntblabby wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
if ECT works, then why not TCMS with less collateral damage?



What is "ECT"?Did you mean "EST" (electroshock therapy)?And what is TCMS?


Electroconvulsive therapy=ECT, another way of saying electroshock therapy.
Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation uses a powerful magnetic coil to excite specific brain parts with focused magnetic current, in a far gentler resetting of neural function than ECT which is literally like a sledgehammer in comparison.


Thanks. I did gather that finally. There is a new book by an aspie middle aged guy who got transcranial, and it ...well...cured his autism...at least temporarily. It had a dramatic effect anyway. He was interviewed by Terri Gross on Fresh Air not long ago.



auntblabby
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31 Oct 2016, 1:40 am

naturalplastic wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
if ECT works, then why not TCMS with less collateral damage?



What is "ECT"?Did you mean "EST" (electroshock therapy)?And what is TCMS?


Electroconvulsive therapy=ECT, another way of saying electroshock therapy.
Trans-Cranial Magnetic Stimulation uses a powerful magnetic coil to excite specific brain parts with focused magnetic current, in a far gentler resetting of neural function than ECT which is literally like a sledgehammer in comparison.


Thanks. I did gather that finally. There is a new book by an aspie middle aged guy who got transcranial, and it ...well...cured his autism...at least temporarily. It had a dramatic effect anyway. He was interviewed by Terri Gross on Fresh Air not long ago.

i will have to google that guy. :idea:



EzraS
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31 Oct 2016, 2:20 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Its an extreme measure used (as the article says) as a last resort for extreme cases.

Cases like the child in the article who would self harm himself to death in short order otherwise.

Dont see how it applies to 99 percent of everyone else on the spectrum.


I agree.



michael517
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31 Oct 2016, 4:43 pm

Three words.

What.

The.

______.



kazanscube
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31 Oct 2016, 7:40 pm

Absolutely not, I'd not have ECT whatsoever mainly from a personal perspective in that, my mom at an early age had been subjected to such against her own will mind you, all due to the fact, she was suffering from depression. Yes, my mom did have short term memory loss and her depression lessened however, it was never cured so to speak due to a tyrant known as my father. My personal feeling on this is no one knows for sure the long term affects it has on an individual over the course of one's lifetime. I'd never choose that option unless it was the last choice and only then.


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CockneyRebel
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01 Nov 2016, 12:22 pm

No thank you. I'll keep my autism.


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