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CarlM
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23 Jul 2021, 10:07 pm

Re-posting since the link my original post was broken.

I think people really don't think about what counts as masking. When I found a list that was used in a research study, I realized I had done lot's of them and even had learned some more on here. Eye contact, for example. I had certainly had tried forced eye contact and avoiding facing the person. On WP, I learned the better technique of near eye contact (looking at near the eyes). The Deep Compensation group are the techniques most are probably not doing. I could imagine women being better at these and I certainly don't remember doing anything like them. I realize some of these are things anyone might do when they want to fit-in with a group. Here is the document with the list of masking techniques: Compensation Checklist


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RetroGamer87
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24 Jul 2021, 12:01 am

HeroOfHyrule wrote:
- How does it feel knowing other autistic men are often branded as serial killers or psychos?
I was actually compared to school shooters and told I'd be one while in school, and it's frustrating. It makes you very angry to be compared to that. I've had people my age online say that, too.

They antagonize us and then when we get angry about it they claim this as proof they were right.


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funeralxempire
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24 Jul 2021, 12:08 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
HeroOfHyrule wrote:
- How does it feel knowing other autistic men are often branded as serial killers or psychos?
I was actually compared to school shooters and told I'd be one while in school, and it's frustrating. It makes you very angry to be compared to that. I've had people my age online say that, too.

They antagonize us and then when we get angry about it they claim this as proof they were right.


I had someone who teased me semi-regularly about how I'd probably be a school shooter. One day I finally asked him if he thought antagonizing me would help him, or ensure that I'm hunting for him?

He never brought it up again. 8)


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Dear_one
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24 Jul 2021, 1:23 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
They antagonize us and then when we get angry about it they claim this as proof they were right.


This is a classic bully strategy. There are other groups that this is happening to on a larger and deadlier scale. The media bias can get so bad that I had a friend who became too afraid to meet people not in the same sect of his religion.



Sweetleaf
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24 Jul 2021, 1:37 am

funeralxempire wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
HeroOfHyrule wrote:
- How does it feel knowing other autistic men are often branded as serial killers or psychos?
I was actually compared to school shooters and told I'd be one while in school, and it's frustrating. It makes you very angry to be compared to that. I've had people my age online say that, too.

They antagonize us and then when we get angry about it they claim this as proof they were right.


I had someone who teased me semi-regularly about how I'd probably be a school shooter. One day I finally asked him if he thought antagonizing me would help him, or ensure that I'm hunting for him?

He never brought it up again. 8)


Well on the day a gunman came into my school and shot another kid, one I was trying to be better friends with because she seemed happy I was back after moving away and going to a different school for a year. But she talked to me and seemed like maybe she wanted to rekindle the friendship we almost had in middle school. But that never happened because guy came into the school and ended up shooting her, and she died.

Anyways on the day of the shooting one of the other kids said to me 'I am surprised you aren't the psycopath with the gun'...she did apologize later after the fact for saying it so I suppose I forgive her, but it still even to this day hurts that she said that. Like is that really what people thought about me?

Not trying to diminish your experience, but oi it was rough having someone say that during an actual, active shooter situation where I was certainly not the perpetrator.


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HeroOfHyrule
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24 Jul 2021, 8:35 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
HeroOfHyrule wrote:
- How does it feel knowing other autistic men are often branded as serial killers or psychos?
I was actually compared to school shooters and told I'd be one while in school, and it's frustrating. It makes you very angry to be compared to that. I've had people my age online say that, too.

They antagonize us and then when we get angry about it they claim this as proof they were right.


I had someone who teased me semi-regularly about how I'd probably be a school shooter. One day I finally asked him if he thought antagonizing me would help him, or ensure that I'm hunting for him?

He never brought it up again. 8)


Well on the day a gunman came into my school and shot another kid, one I was trying to be better friends with because she seemed happy I was back after moving away and going to a different school for a year. But she talked to me and seemed like maybe she wanted to rekindle the friendship we almost had in middle school. But that never happened because guy came into the school and ended up shooting her, and she died.

Anyways on the day of the shooting one of the other kids said to me 'I am surprised you aren't the psycopath with the gun'...she did apologize later after the fact for saying it so I suppose I forgive her, but it still even to this day hurts that she said that. Like is that really what people thought about me?

Not trying to diminish your experience, but oi it was rough having someone say that during an actual, active shooter situation where I was certainly not the perpetrator.

The high school I used to go to had some shooting and bomb threats, and kids immediately tried to pin them on me. I even had a couple of "friends" do that.

Also, online on a (relatively small and anonymous) app I was using I had people that didn't like me spread a rumor that I wanted to become a school shooter, and to get people to stop harassing me I just leaned into it until it wasn't funny for people to joke about it and @ me anymore. That was after the bomb and shooting threats, so I stopped giving a s**t if people actually thought that or not. lmao


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Empathy Quotient: 34/80
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Your broader autism cluster (Aspie) score: 144 of 200.
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You are very likely on the broader autism cluster (Aspie).


ToughDiamond
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24 Jul 2021, 11:40 am

CarlM wrote:
Re-posting since the link my original post was broken.

I think people really don't think about what counts as masking. When I found a list that was used in a research study, I realized I had done lot's of them and even had learned some more on here. Eye contact, for example. I had certainly had tried forced eye contact and avoiding facing the person. On WP, I learned the better technique of near eye contact (looking at near the eyes). The Deep Compensation group are the techniques most are probably not doing. I could imagine women being better at these and I certainly don't remember doing anything like them. I realize some of these are things anyone might do when they want to fit-in with a group. Here is the document with the list of masking techniques: Compensation Checklist

I'm not sure whether many of those things are examples of masking, but I find it an interesting and useful list, and I'm glad you posted it.



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24 Jul 2021, 12:17 pm

In this time,2021, I have no voice.

Being a white, CIS (I still don't fully understand this) gendered, and male means I am viewed as the "problem" with society. Trying to deal with all of that crap makes addressing my Aspie/ASD issues impossible.

I mean if I am already dismissed for being white and male, there is no way they will listen to my mental health issues.


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24 Jul 2021, 6:05 pm

This is a topic that I have given quite a bit of thought over the last couple of years, as it troubles me that the old stereotypes that have been too long fading away (e.g. autism overwhelmingly affects boys; autism is a childhood condition) are in danger of being replaced with new ones. I wouldn't deny that some correlations seem to be fairly conclusively established, but I also don't believe that autism innately has sub-types exactly corresponding to biological sex or gender identity. I think it's important to remember that masking is just a kind of behaviour - and our behaviour is not just mediated by the underlying sensory, perceptual, and cognitive effects of our atypical neurology. It depends also upon other personality traits; every social environment that we've ever interacted with; our capabilities for various kinds of implicit and explicit learning; and to what extent we're motivated to use self-discipline to modify our behavour from moment to moment.

Sure, those factors allow many routes for society's existing stereotypes to create correlations with sex and gender, and sex-dependent organic influences shouldn't be dismissed. But as a middle-aged straight cis male who's goto coping strategy has always been masking (or my best "uncanny valley" attempt at it), I cringe when I see the autism presentation with which I most strongly identify labelled as definitively "female" (I admit, maybe in part because I've heard so many people who bullied me resort to misogynistic and homophobic slurs). One could also posit a correlation between autism masking and the introversion-extroversion axis of personality, or between autism masking and the masking of other features such as mental illness or minority sexual identity. But whatever correlations might be found, fixing them as stereotypes will always encourage gatekeeping, even if only inadvertently. It's only out of necessity that autism is classified solely by observable behaviours, and while my diagnosis depends on that as much as anyone else's, I think it's a pretty blunt instrument when I compare it to the huge variations in how we describe our internal experiences to each other informally.

That's just a few thoughts that I happened to have already scribbled down somewhere - I may try to answer some of the other questions in a later post (it's my first day back here for months, so I have a lot of other threads to explore!)


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Harry Haller
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24 Jul 2021, 6:23 pm

Trogluddite wrote:
This is a topic that I have given quite a bit of thought over the last couple of years, as it troubles me that the old stereotypes that have been too long fading away (e.g. autism overwhelmingly affects boys; autism is a childhood condition) are in danger of being replaced with new ones. I wouldn't deny that some correlations seem to be fairly conclusively established, but I also don't believe that autism innately has sub-types exactly corresponding to biological sex or gender identity. I think it's important to remember that masking is just a kind of behaviour - and our behaviour is not just mediated by the underlying sensory, perceptual, and cognitive effects of our atypical neurology. It depends also upon other personality traits; every social environment that we've ever interacted with; our capabilities for various kinds of implicit and explicit learning; and to what extent we're motivated to use self-discipline to modify our behavour from moment to moment.

Sure, those factors allow many routes for society's existing stereotypes to create correlations with sex and gender, and sex-dependent organic influences shouldn't be dismissed. But as a middle-aged straight cis male who's goto coping strategy has always been masking (or my best "uncanny valley" attempt at it), I cringe when I see the autism presentation with which I most strongly identify labelled as definitively "female" (I admit, maybe in part because I've heard so many people who bullied me resort to misogynistic and homophobic slurs). One could also posit a correlation between autism masking and the introversion-extroversion axis of personality, or between autism masking and the masking of other features such as mental illness or minority sexual identity. But whatever correlations might be found, fixing them as stereotypes will always encourage gatekeeping, even if only inadvertently. It's only out of necessity that autism is classified solely by observable behaviours, and while my diagnosis depends on that as much as anyone else's, I think it's a pretty blunt instrument when I compare it to the huge variations in how we describe our internal experiences to each other informally.

That's just a few thoughts that I happened to have already scribbled down somewhere - I may try to answer some of the other questions in a later post (it's my first day back here for months, so I have a lot of other threads to explore!)

This is really intelligent.

And:
"It's only out of necessity that autism is classified solely by observable behaviours, and while my diagnosis depends on that as much as anyone else's, I think it's a pretty blunt instrument when I compare it to the huge variations in how we describe our internal experiences to each other informally."

Brilliant.


Can't split it out.
Too much overlap on the Gaussian curve.
It's the Devil of trying to put things in boxes, which I tried (unsuccessfully) to explain earlier this thread.



funeralxempire
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24 Jul 2021, 6:26 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
HeroOfHyrule wrote:
- How does it feel knowing other autistic men are often branded as serial killers or psychos?
I was actually compared to school shooters and told I'd be one while in school, and it's frustrating. It makes you very angry to be compared to that. I've had people my age online say that, too.

They antagonize us and then when we get angry about it they claim this as proof they were right.


I had someone who teased me semi-regularly about how I'd probably be a school shooter. One day I finally asked him if he thought antagonizing me would help him, or ensure that I'm hunting for him?

He never brought it up again. 8)


Well on the day a gunman came into my school and shot another kid, one I was trying to be better friends with because she seemed happy I was back after moving away and going to a different school for a year. But she talked to me and seemed like maybe she wanted to rekindle the friendship we almost had in middle school. But that never happened because guy came into the school and ended up shooting her, and she died.

Anyways on the day of the shooting one of the other kids said to me 'I am surprised you aren't the psycopath with the gun'...she did apologize later after the fact for saying it so I suppose I forgive her, but it still even to this day hurts that she said that. Like is that really what people thought about me?

Not trying to diminish your experience, but oi it was rough having someone say that during an actual, active shooter situation where I was certainly not the perpetrator.


That's terrible. I'm sorry someone did that, you'd think after it had just been made real they'd be a little more serious and mature about it.


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funeralxempire
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24 Jul 2021, 6:29 pm

jbmajord wrote:
In this time,2021, I have no voice.

Being a white, CIS (I still don't fully understand this) gendered, and male means I am viewed as the "problem" with society. Trying to deal with all of that crap makes addressing my Aspie/ASD issues impossible.


But many of the people who condemn institutional problems are also white, cis-het males. Condemning institutional biases doesn't require personally blaming people who might benefit from them.


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Harry Haller
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24 Jul 2021, 6:39 pm

jbmajord wrote:
I mean if I am already dismissed for being white and male

Sit down at the table.

Don't expect an invite, and above all: Do Not ask for permission.



RetroGamer87
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24 Jul 2021, 7:36 pm

HeroOfHyrule wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
HeroOfHyrule wrote:
- How does it feel knowing other autistic men are often branded as serial killers or psychos?
I was actually compared to school shooters and told I'd be one while in school, and it's frustrating. It makes you very angry to be compared to that. I've had people my age online say that, too.

They antagonize us and then when we get angry about it they claim this as proof they were right.


I had someone who teased me semi-regularly about how I'd probably be a school shooter. One day I finally asked him if he thought antagonizing me would help him, or ensure that I'm hunting for him?

He never brought it up again. 8)


Well on the day a gunman came into my school and shot another kid, one I was trying to be better friends with because she seemed happy I was back after moving away and going to a different school for a year. But she talked to me and seemed like maybe she wanted to rekindle the friendship we almost had in middle school. But that never happened because guy came into the school and ended up shooting her, and she died.

Anyways on the day of the shooting one of the other kids said to me 'I am surprised you aren't the psycopath with the gun'...she did apologize later after the fact for saying it so I suppose I forgive her, but it still even to this day hurts that she said that. Like is that really what people thought about me?

Not trying to diminish your experience, but oi it was rough having someone say that during an actual, active shooter situation where I was certainly not the perpetrator.

The high school I used to go to had some shooting and bomb threats, and kids immediately tried to pin them on me. I even had a couple of "friends" do that.

Also, online on a (relatively small and anonymous) app I was using I had people that didn't like me spread a rumor that I wanted to become a school shooter, and to get people to stop harassing me I just leaned into it until it wasn't funny for people to joke about it and @ me anymore. That was after the bomb and shooting threats, so I stopped giving a s**t if people actually thought that or not. lmao

Ok, this stuff is making me glad I don't live in the US. I'd rather deal with the snakes and spiders


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26 Jul 2021, 9:19 am

IsabellaLinton wrote:


- Are you diagnosed / self-diagnosed, and at what age?
- Did you have difficulty finding a diagnostician as an adult?
- Were you taken seriously by your GP, your family and friends, etc?


I was diagnosed with adhd in 2011, but my psychologist said I didnt have autism because I did not lack theory of mind enough.

My family rejects the Adhd diagnosis, but will not talk to me about the topic, to the point it took me a decade to figure out they had totally rejected the diagnosis.

I long doubted my psychologists take on autism and theory of mind, and now that I am looking into Firth and Cohen [idiots], I doubt that psychologists mind on the topic of autism entirety.



ToughDiamond
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27 Jul 2021, 10:05 am

The_Znof wrote:
I was diagnosed with adhd in 2011, but my psychologist said I didnt have autism because I did not lack theory of mind enough.

I'm sure you're correct that he was wrong. How can it be valid to withhold a diagnosis for a spectrum disorder on the basis of one parameter not being very strong? Especially when it was declared so subjectively. Others on WP have said they were similarly refused a DX or a referral. One of them was rejected for seeming too good at eye contact I think.