Sanity

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How do you know you are sane?

What are the standard criteria for sanity?

From reading my posts on WP, what is peoples' general impression of my level of mental health/sanity?

People can be totally honest

I consider myself to be sane because I have the ability to think rationally and make sensible decisions in the vast majority of the time, which, obviously, does not mean all of the time. Everyone has their judgement clouded by emotion at times.



I expect that the standard criteria for sanity is similar to my own (see above), but I don't know.



From what I've read of your posts, you're a perfectly sane and intelligent person who makes intelligent points and always backs up her words with evidence, but I also think that you're a rather angry person, but for wholly justifiable reasons.

Thanks Kuribo, that's very helpful

That's what I tend to think myself but I personally feel I am constantly fighting a battle to maintain my sanity in the face of a hostile world that is frequently provoking me to anger by being disrespecful and dismissive towards me

I feel how would other people be coping if they were living my life? better? worse?

I feel it's very unfair that I am expected to uphold the same standards of behaviour as people who aren't having to deal with anywhere near the amount of disrespect and disdain off others as I have to

I feel far too much mental strain is put on me by other people, to the extent that the only way I can cope is by avoiding them most of the time

I'm taking my last employer to an employment tribunal and my solicitor has sent me the employer defence against my case today and he's said I need to be providing mitigation for my loss of income by showing proof that I am looking for another job. He says if I don't do this I may not get any income loss-related compensation if I win the case. I told him I'm not entering the workplace again as I don't feel I'm mentally capable of coping with it. I had my medical assessment for Employment and Support Allowance this Tuesday and that will be used to decide whether I get put into the support group, which would mean I'm not expected to work or the work related activity group, which means you have to have work focused interviews etc or get taken off ESA altogether.

The last time I claimed ESA I was put into the support group but I've worked since then and also my Dr has put on my Drs notes that she thinks I could work in the right environment. I think this is very unfair as I don't feel capable of working again - I've reached burnout in my opinion. I also do not want to work again, given the awful time I had with the last job. I came close to hitting the manager who bullied me and feel that if I'm forced to work again I will end up following though if it happens again. I have reached a zero tolerance level as regards disrespect off others - I do not see why I should put up with it any more. Mental health services have provided no Asperger's Syndrome-specific support so as far as I'm concerned there has been no sufficiently qualified professional opinion regarding whether I am able to cope in the workplace, given the current state of my mental health.

I hate society and have an ideological hatred of 'the system' now and yet everyone seems to think I'm perfectly safe to be in the workplace! Do I have to kill someone to prove otherwise??

Last edited by nessa238 on 26 Apr 2013, 8:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

Sane people should have a sane explanation for their explanations.

Nessa, seriously you sound sane from your posts. You are very articulate and intelligent. It's obvious though, that you are very hurt by what life has thrown (and continues to throw) at you, by way of ill-treatment and injustices. This has made you clearly bitter, cynical and angry - which I am sure you would be the first one to acknowledge. I feel that you need a release for your anger because it is festering. None of this is a criticism, I understand how it is to get that way. Some of your posts do come across a little worrying when you talk about killing and revenge etc., I know they may only be words as an outlet for your anger but as we are all anonymous and don't know one another, it's easy to think "what if that person means it". And as I've said in a post before, with all that's going on in the media with Aspergers being raised when shootings have happened, it does Aspies no favours if the general public read that and confirms the media hype in their minds (which can bring us even more discrimination). None of this means you are insane however. You are just reacting to crap in life. In a different set of circumstances you would likely be entirely different. In other words, your feelings are valid. It's just what you do with them that matters. Unless you start having hallucinations or hearing voices you have nothing to worry about by way of insanity!

Well, there are two definitions of mental illness.

One definition is the psychological one, and one is the legal one.

According to the psychological one, a mental illness means there is something atypical about your thought patterns, and this causes impairment in your everyday life. By this definition, everyone with AS has a mental illness. Others restrict mental illness to 'state' conditions rather than 'trait' conditions, but by that definition not all schizophrenics are mentally ill (and the ones that aren't are the more severely affected).

According to the legal definition, a mental illness means you are not capable of understanding the true consequences of your actions. Specifically, this definition is used in cases of criminal behavior where the person was so out of touch with what was happening that they did not realize they were committing a crime. For example, if you think you can kill someone and they will come back to life and be stronger than before, you are legally insane. You can also be legally insane if you've got a severe cognitive disability - eg if you understand the world the way a preschooler does and you're an adult. LFAs may be considered legally insane, but the vast majority of AS aren't.

I can't see how you showing mitigation for your loss has any bearing on your case. You would not be in the position of having to search for work if your previous employer hadn't dismissed you/constructively dismissed you and made your situation untenable with meetings to sort it out. Ask your solicitor for his justification and legal evidence/precedence. Also, you can and probably are, claiming that your mental health has suffered as a specific result of being dismissed, so again, you would not be in this position had your employer not dismissed you and your health is not the same now as it was when you worked for them, it is worse. Even regardless of that, anyone with ill health (physical or mental) cannot actively look for work. And this is all separate to your ESA.

Make an appointment with your GP to state that you want a professional opinion from her as to why she feels you could work in the right environment and what environment she recommends (if it's an unrealistic one then that shoots that one down).

Also, do you have any charities such as MIND in your area? http://www.mind.org.uk/help/mind_in_your_area They can offer advice on your rights and advocacy (so could potentially liaise with both your GP and solicitor). Also the NAS has advocacy information: http://www.autism.org.uk/living-with-au ... utism.aspx

Thanks Whirlingmind

I don't know how else I could have dealt with my problems though?

Am I meant to blithely ignore and forgive everyone who has ever been disrespectful towards me? I never even have the vocal ability or language to be able to challenge them or insult them back at the time as I've been trained to be polite and respectful towards others. This has seriously handicapped me in my opinion as it's left me defenceless.

I don't think I'm confirming media hype, I am demonstrating the circumstances under which people with Aspergers/anyone for that matter, can crack and end up doing violent stuff

It's very true that I say stuff as a form of outlet about how people make me feel and that acting on my feelings is a different matter

I'm saying I feel it's a massive strain on me for society to expect me to keep restaining myself ie not reacting in kind to peoples' disrespect. I mean NTs get into fights in pubs for something as petty as having their drink knocked over! - how on earth would they be reacting to the level of disrespect I put up with on a regular basis??

I'm just worried that this strain might make me crack one day and then I won't be in control any more.

Last year, after I had come off my anti-depressants as I got fed up of taking them, I phoned up the head of the Healthy Minds mental health service in my home town and threatened him regarding receiving no support. I said I knew about a person with Aspergers who had been refused a service by the local mental health service and had gone on to commit suicide. I said if my mental health deteriorated further I wouldn't be killing myself, I'd be finding a very sharp knife and coming round to his office, so he'd better start hiding!"

He reported me to the police, who came round the next day and 'had a talk' with me and told me to email him
an aplogy. So much for mental health services! The CBT service I was about to be assessed for was cancelled too. I complained about this to the mental health trust and they eventually gave me 12 CBT therapy sessions.
I would have thought something a bit more substantial was in order though!

So this is clear incentive to stay on my anti-depressants but it's worrying

People seem to have more faith in me not to lose it than I do myself!

Never seen you as an insane person.

The mitigation aspect comes in with regards to the income loss.

During the time I was suspended from work (after the altercation with the bullying cover manager in which I lost my temper and swore at her), I went to the Dr and asked fro a Drs note as I felt depressed and wanted this evidenced. I was getting full company pay while suspended but after sending in the first Drs note I was put on Statutory Sick Pay, which was less than full company pay. I hadn't received the information informing me that I wouldn't qualify for company sick pay until the first six months of employment (or something like that) and I'd only been there for 2 months.

It was probably also legally wrong as I was suspended primarily and that should have dictated the pay I received, not my becoming ill while suspended, never mind the fact that I became ill as a direct result of the employer's and manager's actions.
My post was a part-time temporary post, for approx 12 months, to cover the maternity leave of the person who had been doing the job before me. That would have been until about October this year. So my loss of earnings claim to the tribunal is the difference between the SSP they paid me after I sent in the Drs note and what I should have received as full company pay, plus the amount of pay I would have received if I'd stayed in the post until the end of the temporary post. You can also claim for lost earnings after dismissal while you look for another job. This is why they wanted me to provide proof of looking for another job ie so I can claim compensation for not being in work after dismissal.

I trust the solicitor to know what he's talking about as regards this and I have told him I'm not going back into the workplace as I don't see myself as mentally capable of it. I've told him about the ESA medical I had this week and that they may put me back into the Support Group (which I was in prior to applying for the job), which would mean I wasn't deemed fit to work.

The solicitor has asked me if I can get a report from my GP stating that I am not able to work so I have made an appointment to see her next week. I don't think it will be easy to persuade her though as she's put words to this effect on my last two Drs notes:-

"Has Asperger's syndrome: can only work in environment where she does not have to interact
with public or many other individuals. A quiet environment is required."

Despite my saying I didn't want to work again, didn't feel a job with the right environment existed and that I'd nearly hit the bullying manager.

I've got no time for advocates as the last one I had who came with me to one of the 2 meetings I had with my last employer
dropped me right in it. The employer is using a paraphrased version of what she said during the meeting in their defence as she said at one point I was scaring them and her! ffs!

Oh, I remember you saying about the advocates now. What I think you need to get across to your GP, is not to say "I don't want to go back to work" but "I feel too ill/mentally unstable to go back to work". If you use the term "I don't want" that will go against you more than likely and they will draw wrong conclusions.

You also need to impress upon your GP that your former employer consider you violent/aggressive, and you feel that you have no control regarding your amount of aggression. Tell her that it's NOT a question of you not wanting to work, but that you have always had issues with social interactions which has negatively affected employment. It's a lifelong thing that is part of your Asperger's. Because your mental health was already fragile, and this happened to you at work, you are suffering PTSD, anxiety, depression and you have insufficient control over your anger levels. This makes you unemployable right now. Tell her you need anger-management therapy (something that you are likely to wait a very long time for on the NHS) and CBT for PTSD. Tell her you need social skills training (this is something you will never, ever get on the NHS because even children can't get it from CAMHS) and saying this will make her see just how much of a mountain you have to climb to be able to be employable again).

Don't forget to ask her for something in writing that specifies the type of job she feels (based on what YOU have said) will be a suitable environment for you - this will narrow available options down hugely.

Bring notes on all this to refer to so you don't get tongue-tied or unfocused and not say pertinent things.

Let us know how you get on, I will keep my fingers crossed for you.

PS regarding this:

I still don't see how you need to prove you are looking for work now (especially being too ill) to show that you have lost income - because as I said the employer made you lose income and made you ill anyway, and how can you mitigate something that they made you too unwell to?

Yes I know what you mean

I feel I am restricted by the extent to which the Dr is prepared to listen to what I have to say though

She is polite and respectful but there's always a sense of her not having any personal interest in what I'm saying hence i'm jsut another patient. I find NTs never take what i say that seriously if you know what i mean

A loud chav would get more vested interest from the Dr than me as they're another NT - it's like that - I am always on the back foot trying to make the Dr interested enough in my issues basically. It's like that with most people.
I'm not saying she isn't a good Dr medically, it's just that I don't have the ability to convince her of my worth in terms of really listening to me. I always feel patronised by most people, as if they are humouring me and wanting to move on to the next person, who they've no doubt made good friends with!

I will show her the solicitor emails though and impress on her that it's important for my tribunal case to have a report from her saying I am unable to work and that in my opinion it's true.

As for all those different types of therapy - to get even basic CBT is a major achievement. The average mental health worker in my home town is thick as s**t - I'm not kidding! My cat could do a better job! There's nothing any of them could say to improve my life as I know what my problems are and it's up to me to find ways of coping with them. None of them have the slightest clue what autism or Asperger's Syndrome are or how it affects a person nor the slightest interest in learning about it.
I invariably feel more intelligent than most people in NHS mental health services and I'm not an arrogant person. People in private practice can sometimes be more intelligent but I have no money.

Last edited by nessa238 on 26 Apr 2013, 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I know, the logic is flawed when applied to my case definitely. I would argue that the whole experience has made me unlikely to work ever again and that I should be compensated for that.

I just want the chance to say my piece in court basically and to see if the Disability Act is worth the paper it's written on!
I also want the court to see what a nasty b***h the one who bullied me is!

I hope you do get your day in court then, one in the eye for all of us that have suffered workplace bullying.

I know what you mean about your GP. I hate mine, he cuts across me as soon as I start speaking and won't let me talk, refuses to read anything I bring/send, but I need to put things in writing because I find it so hard face-to-face. He also rang me once and spoke to me like a deaf little old lady, I couldn't believe it. I thought, "does he think Asperger's or anxiety make someone senile!". How the hell can you bullet point in 3 words (e.g.) what you need to explain - but that's all they want to hear.

Thanks - it is a general feeling of wanting what we have to put up with in the workplace publicly acknowledged for once

I don't have a problem telling the Dr what I need to say, it's just the forming a relationship/bond with them that never happens.
They can be friendly towards me but I never feel they see me as an equal.

The GP I see now has a brother with autism so she is more understanding than average but I still feel I'm being put in a 'person with autism' type box and not being treated exactly the same as an NT.

I have no problem complaining if I don't think I've received a good service

Your GP sounds awful! Aren't there any other Drs at the practice you could see instead? If not I'd change practice.