New to this - wondering about emotional/relational capacity

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Hi there! I'm totally new and grateful to have found this site and forum. I'm a 32-year-old NT woman and just recently realized that my boyfriend of 5+ years (whom I live with and was thinking of marrying) may have a lot of autism-spectrum traits, although I don't think he fits a diagnosis fully. Things that, for years, I thought were just him seem to fit pretty closely things I've been reading about Asperger's, since my sister suggested it to me recently. Now I'm wondering what his capacity for empathy, compassion, and warmth might be, if this is indeed a possibility re: what's going on with him. (I am very markedly NT especially when it comes to social and emotional stuff, and I have a really strong need for warm connection in those areas. I'm not trying to judge/pathologize him, of course -- just trying to get more information and think through whether he's likely to be able to meet the needs I have for a partner in the long term.)

So here's what's going on that makes me wonder if he might have some AS traits:

- He has a hard time producing certain facial expressions. He can do anger and disgust, and has a gorgeous smile when he's amused. But he doesn't do a "real" smile when he's happy or loving -- he makes a little half-smile that now I realize might be an attempt to copy what others do. We recently started talking about what a compassionate face looks like (you know, like when you're seeing someone suffer and you look concerned), and he was totally lost. He tried to learn from me how to do it and couldn't, and then asked for a picture so he could practice in the mirror.
- He has a bit of a hard time understanding the emotional valences or connotations of words, sometimes. For example, once upon seeing my friend's baby for the second time, he told her, "She actually looks better!!" (He meant it as a compliment.) Or, he was confused about what it meant when a woman called another woman a cow, and whether that was a bad thing or what. (!) He also has some trouble understanding what people are saying to him, and sometimes it will take several repetitions of a question before he responds aptly.
- He is ALL about routines, schedules, systems, and order. He has an Excel sheet for everything imaginable in his life. He puts his regular dinnertime on his calendar. He is continually organizing and reorganizing his things -- when he had a roommate, he would sometimes reorganize his roommate's things.
- He hardly ever expresses warmth or emotion on his own. Not that I've kept count, but he's probably only said, "I love you," only a couple times to me in 5 years without me saying it first. I don't think he gets the thing where couples are verbally affectionate to each other on a regular basis.
- He likes to be alone A LOT. Even 30 minutes per day of casual interaction/conversation seems a bit much for him. I've learned I need to give him a ton of space.
- He hates change and new situations, and although he has a lot of old friends, he doesn't make new friends easily. I think his newest friend might be from 8-10 years ago. He often turns down my requests to go to social events together where we would be meeting new people.
- He doesn't understand the role of tone in communication -- the distinction between what you say and how you say it. He's very surprised when he finds that I have an emotional response to the angry/hostile tone he uses sometimes. He's (sincerely) requested over the years that I just ignore his tone and take away only the content of his message. He thinks I am crazy/needy/overemotional -- really for *any* kind of emotional responses, even patient and tame ones.
- He doesn't respond to my emotions (other than to be annoyed that he has to deal with them). He'll misread me, or simply not register his effect on me. One time recently after he'd been particularly harsh I was sobbing in the kitchen (very unusual for me!!) and later he asked why I said I was emotionally tired -- he said he thought it had been a normal day. Or, he'll be convinced I'm very upset when I'm actually not at all (just from reading (incorrectly) into my body language while I'm sitting quietly).
- Specifically, he doesn't seem to have compassion for what I feel or for when I suffer. Like, ever. If he's yelling at me and I start crying it has no effect on him, then or later. He never shows compassion (softening his tone, hugging, pausing, anything), or seems to feel any remorse later. Even if I'm sad about something unrelated to him, or happy, or worried, or whatever, it doesn't seem to affect him, and he doesn't seem to be able to respond beyond a passing "sorry" or "that's cool" (and even those I've coached him on!!).
- Sort of relatedly, he's kinda firmly focused on himself, I guess you'd say. I've never seen him be able to handle that thing where you consider your loved one's feelings and needs and then figure out a response that works for both of you. Instead, his go-to move is to dismiss the other person's feelings/needs with a "who knows?" or eye-roll, or contempt -- whether it's his family, friends, or me. I'm glad he can't be manipulated, but I've also never seen him say, "This is really important to my mom, so I'm moved to do this one thing for her." He doesn't do that thing of pushing past your own preferences from time to time out of love/compassion for a loved one.
- He has a hard time with the whole romance and emotional engagement thing. He actually does a great job on Valentine's Day and our anniversary, but those are the only two days out of the year when he does the romance thing. He lives with me more like a roommate -- I feel like his ideal scenario would be for us to exchange no more than 2 minutes of conversation a day, stay in separate rooms, and then come together maybe once a week for an hour or so of snuggling. (Or maybe less often than that.) And what he gets is pretty close. He doesn't kiss me, other than maybe a peck on the lips, unless he wants to... get a party started. He hates when I ask him about his day or how he's doing. He doesn't ask these questions either unless I coach him to. He doesn't do chitchat, and only really converses if we get on a favorite topic or rant of his. He almost never reaches out to me emotionally -- complimenting me, getting close, talking about how he appreciates me or how he feels about me.

Recently, things have been extra tough because his normal mix of a pinch of warmth with a ton of distance/silence/neutrality has been disrupted by more bouts of really negative, out-of-the-blue stuff: anger, annoyance, hostility, serious criticism, and contempt. He's so irascible, and many times I have no idea what I did wrong. (I've recently learned that sometimes this was a result of his misreading me.) Or, when talking about something he found frustrating in me many months ago, he'll just flip out, start yelling, and say lots of really nasty, biting things about me -- even if everything had just been going wonderfully between us and I'd been super sweet to him -- and then he'll be like, "What? That was upsetting to you? I honestly don't think I'm being negative."

I'm having a hard time with the emotional whiplash, but when I (very gently) tried to ask for more positivity in our interactions, he was flummoxed and angry (and said I should talk to my therapist but not come to him with this weird need). I'm wondering if maybe he doesn't know what effect an angry/contemptuous tone has on me, or what the difference is between saying things that way or another way, or how he might control his temper. And I also wonder if he doesn't know what I mean by positivity and warmth. I'd tried explaining this recently, but still.

So... I love and admire him very much, and I believe him that he loves me and isn't trying to hurt me. I didn't put ANY of this together before as possible AS stuff because I just thought it was his uniqueness, and always tried to just accommodate him -- I didn't think much of it. I think he is so cute and wonderful (most of the time), and that's made me overlook a great deal.

But I'm a very huggy, social, emotional-relational person, and I do need and want a lot of warmth and generous love in my relationship. The lack of compassion thing has always been really hard for me, and now I'm starting to worry if it would come up if we had kids. And I'm also a little worried about whether he would have the capacity to meet (at least to a substantial extent) the needs I have for a warm, emotionally engaged partnership. I want to try to be realistic about who I am and what I need to be happy in a relationship and feel loved.

So after all that (sorry it was so long!!) my two questions are:
1) Does this sound roughly AS-ish to you? I'm not too concerned with whether it's diagnosable, just wondering if this sounds roughly related, or whether there are parts of the above that have nothing to do with AS.
2) If this is something like AS territory, do you think he *could* be compassionate, and provide the other kinds of magnanimous love, acceptance, warmth, and connection I need in a partner?

I should also note that (unlike other Aspies I've read) he doesn't at present seem motivated to recognize this or change. He just thinks I'm the one with the problem, end of story. Although we did just start couple's therapy, and maybe his attitude could change (?).

Thanks so much in advance! I'm really grateful for any help or thoughts.

AS-ish? Definitely. Actually he sounds a lot like me. My advice to you: marry someone else. Maybe you can be friends with this guy in a year or two when the drama settles.

He could have AS, but he could also have any number of personality disorders, too. I spent most of my time reading your list wondering why you were still with him, even for someone with suspected AS, he sounds especially indifferent to your emotions and responses. I would definitely notice and react if someone I loved was sobbing because of something I said ...

He sounds somewhat like my ex-boyfriend who had both AS and Borderline Personality Disorder. I tried to make some changes in that relationship, but he only managed most changes for a short amount of time before completely forgetting again about how his behaviour affected me. It's very difficult to change people. If he is willing and able, he might be able to make some small changes over a long-period of time, but to some extent he will probably always be the way he is. I would say that if who he is now is not someone you could be with forever, then he is not right for you. You're never going to turn him into a compassionate and emotionally stable NT.

That sounds just like my ex husband! I'm not sure if it's just classic "male" Aspergers (as opposed to females with Aspergers) or if it's that and/or something else. At the core of his being I think my ex was capable of comprehending and feeling emotions but it seemed to me there were problems with the input and output, like the communication channels were full of static.

Probably one of the most insensitive interactions with him was when my 23 year old brother was killed in a car accident and he expressed no empathy. He actually felt put out that I was spending more time with my grieving parents and not at home taking care of him. When I asked why he didn't express any empathy for me and my family he said "I barely knew the guy." He did know him 5 years. Maybe they weren't best pals but they had interacted many times at family gatherings over those years. That was really besides the point anyway as it should have mattered to him that I was upset even if he had never met my brother.

I wasn't even aware of Aspergers until after we divorced so all I could guess was he had issues relating to his childhood. We went to marriage counselling for a couple years for various issues that I now realize were symptoms not the root cause. The counselor even singled him out for solo counseling sessions and he really exhibited no change. I divorced him after 13 years primarily because I thought he was a threat to our son's and my safety. He had previously harmed me on two occasions (both times the Christian counselors encouraged me to remain in the marriage, I think that was bad advice) and his anger/meltdowns seemed to be escalating, especially when interacting with our son who was still a baby at the time. He was doing stuff like throwing baby food against the wall because the kid wouldn't eat, screaming and cursing at him when he was 1 year old for knocking a sippy cup on the ground, etc. Completely inappropriate and he didn't see anything wrong with his fits of rage. "I'm sorry! Alright!" He got mad at me for not forgiving him of his disingenuous apologies.

When I suspected Aspergers after we divorced and emailed him to suggest it along with some links to look at he dismissed the notion right away. He's always been resistant to anyone suggesting anything might be wrong with him, to the point that he refuses to seek any advice or help.

I suggest your boyfriend go for an evaluation. If he is diagnosed with Aspergers or a similar condition there should be some kind of treatment available. There are therapists who specialize in teaching social skills to people with Aspergers. Cognitive-behavioral therapy. If he's unwilling to consider the possibility that something might be going on with him and continues to insist it's you (and everybody else) who has a problem then he'll always be a bull in your china shop if you stay with him and it will likely get worse as the years go by and you're only regarded as a housekeeper and schedule disruptor.

Thank you so much. everyone!! This is so helpful, and I really appreciate your taking the time to give me your thoughts on this. Tori, I am so sorry about your brother!! And the reaction you got. That sounds so harrowing.

So, I guess to round out the story, as to why I'm with him it's mostly that I'm still so in love with him. I find him so cute, I feel a lot of love and cherishing and protectiveness for him, and I'm really strongly attached to him. He's so unique, and (usually) I find him really endearing. Though there have been plenty of very painful moments over the years, until recently I never seriously questioned whether I'd always be with him. Sure, I think some of it is that these things crept up gradually over the years and I got so used to them (I am a big accommodater), and in a way the mixture of love and judgment/condemnation he's given me felt familiar from my childhood, etc. But mostly, it's that I just have such a crush on him still and love and care about him so much.

Also, he has a lot of great qualities. He's very organized and reliable with practical stuff, tidy, great with chores. He's very loyal in the sense that I don't worry that he'd ever cheat on me. He's remarkably perceptive about a lot of things about life, people, etc., despite everything I mentioned above. And I really appreciate how grounded in himself he is (even if it borders on selfishness) because I once dated a guy who didn't really know/assert himself -- just abjectly wanted to please others, without a lot of groundedness -- and that was way worse for me. Oh, and when he is in the mood to be physically affectionate he can just be so confiding and cute and playful. And his sense of humor is hilarious.

Intentions are (almost) everything to me, and I really do believe he loves me and doesn't intend to hurt me despite the above. And he tries to be supportive. With the thing about how my emotions don't seem to affect him, they don't seem to produce much in the way of mirror emotions in him, but he still makes some effort to respond (as long as I'm not upset at him). I don't think it's that he doesn't value me, but that he doesn't know how to empathize, and his responses come out a little flat because of how he doesn't have a big emotional response within himself. Or he can sometimes seem distracted/under-responsive (like he forgets to try to engage), unless it's something really big that happened. (The one exception is anger -- that's maybe the emotion he most often really feels/expresses to the full extent. So if I vent about something that makes him angry too, he'll definitely express that and show solidarity in that way.)

He also does make efforts to be warm in certain ways. When I wake up and come over to him he'll say, "hey babe," and hold out his arm to hug me, and maybe ask how I slept. (He doesn't smile, but I think he is trying to be friendly in his own way.) Or he'll sometimes compliment my appearance if we're about to go out somewhere together. He does show genuine interest sometimes in what I like/prefer (e.g., he was going to buy a vase for our apartment and he came and brought me to the store first to get my input). And he's more NT-ish in being there for me if I'm upset by something unrelated to him. My parents divorced (unexpectedly) shortly after we started dating, and he was great about listening. He doesn't show emotional compassion -- like, seeming pained at seeing me suffer -- but I think he's there on a more cognitive level and the caring intentions are there. I think he wants us to have a good relationship and a) doesn't necessarily understand what that involves on an emotional level and b) gets to circuit overload pretty fast, so he's not able to do a whole lot in terms of moving from his comfort zone.

I guess the distinction is that he can be great (or at least average :) when he's doing stuff on his own initiative, terms, and timing -- but if I (or anyone else) needs something more or something different, that is unacceptable to him. The answer is always an emphatic no.

I'm especially curious as to how much he might be able to learn about interpreting and responding to others' needs and emotions, because I wonder if the way he brushes them off (if they conflict in any way with his preferences) might stem from frustration that comes from confusion: not being able to make sense of what people are feeling and why, and how he might effectively navigate this territory (comforting and/or meeting the needs of others while not compromising himself too much). Maybe if he felt more understanding and confidence in his abilities to interact with others' emotions, he might not turn away from them so much?

I am not in a place to say anything about whether your boyfriend has aspergers, but i was wondering if you had ever seen the big bang theory, its just the character sheldon sounds a bit like your boyfriend, not completly but im sure you would probably see the similarities. i know its fictional but the general consensus around sheldon as a character is that he is autistic, it might be interesting for you to see the programme.

Yes, I have seen Big Bang! My boyfriend overlaps with Sheldon only marginally, I'd say. I definitely agree they were going for an Aspie character (he loves trains and is very attached to his spot on the couch, etc.).

Ettina, thank you so much! That is really helpful. That distinction between understanding and caring is a really vital one, and I didn't know about it. Sounds like in that regard he might have something else going on. I really appreciate it!

Thanks, Foxfield! That's very helpful, and certainly helps me understand. I really appreciate it!

Just to add where I'm coming from, I'm a woman with ASD. My first husband didn't accept me for who I was. He became very controlling, constantly trying to mold me into his idea of what I should be. His demands seemed arbitrary and impossible to live up to and he made my life hell. Eventually I snapped and left him.
My second husband does accept me for who I am. He understands why I don't make eye contact, why I act awkwardly in public or need time alone or don't pick up on subtle signals from him. He works with me and (most of the time) tells me straightforwardly what he wants me to know.

I see a lot of people in relationships with aspies who think they can change them, or who deny their own needs while harboring resentment, and I don't think they are being fair to themselves or to their aspie partners. You have to be honest with yourself about whether knowing he cares about you (if you do know that) and seeing him express it the way he already does is enough, or if you need him to do things he can't do.

In my experience, what aspies can do is learn the theory behind emotional presentation. When we're doing it in real time, though, the additional time that it takes us to think of what to do breaks the feedback loops in other people's brains and they either start ignoring us or become irrationally angry with us. There is stuff we can learn to do, as we understand more about what it is we're missing, but dealing with reactions to us, no matter how well we're doing at passing, is something the normals around us must learn to do.

As we learn more, too, we learn just how alone and shut off we've been, and that's hard to deal with. We have to break down walls of habit that shield us from the vales of desperation and confusion, and try to conjure other people into worlds previously the domain of an individual.

I was lucky enough to discover autism in the early years of relationship with someone who cared enough to make the journey with me, as I try to share hers. Two decades on, I try her patience but perhaps I'm worth the trouble.

I really hesitate to give anyone 'stay or go' advice, and I'm unsure what's being asked of others, here.

You might want to read the recent discussion in the AS/NT thread (sticky thread top of this forum.)

You sound somewhat like me and if that is true you could have many tears ahead.

In a lifeboat, in the worst case life scenario (don't forget no one knows the future) would you want this person by your side? Could you trust him to look after you?

Wow. Thank you all *so* much. This is really helpful, and I so appreciate your taking the time to share your thoughts.
Nonperson, your response was deep. Thank you. You've given me a lot to think about. And Popsicle, at your suggestion I read the last several pages of the AS/NT hotline thread and that was very helpful too.

If I understand everyone right, it sounds like AS tendencies he seems to maybe have (although he does not seem fully AS) might explain his need for lots of alone time, and relative infrequency of emotional expression/engagement, undertstanding, etc. But not the part about the lack of compassion/caring -- AS might affect how that is expressed, but not whether or not it's there.

If I got that right, then if it were just AS-related stuff that was going on with him I don't think I'd even be here; it wouldn't be a big problem. Even though I'm so huggy and relational (if you know Meyers-Briggs, I'm an ENFP :), I'm also a translator by nature (partly my personality, partly the effect of having lived in different countries/cultures/languages), and I'm generally happy to interpret his style of communication on his own terms. (I've even started adopting some of his more unorthodox ways of speaking, which gets me in trouble when I forget and use it with other people. ;) Also, it's been so long, I've adapted to a great deal of it, and the happiness I feel at being with this person whom I love and cherish largely outweighs the lonelier feelings that come with his relatively aloof personality.

But there are a few things I'm not sure I could abide in the long run, and it sounds like these things might be issues that have nothing to do with AS. Essentially, they are:
- Not showing any compassion or gentleness when he makes me suffer; responding with anger and dismissal in any/every instance in which I tell him I'm feeling hurt by him (which is usually no more than a few times a year, and lately once or twice a month).
- Never being moved by love/compassion to budge beyond the rigid boundaries of his own comfort zone. If I'm in a difficult situation that *doesn't* have to do with him, he'll make an effort to choose to be there for me -- but the second he decides he's done, he is DONE. He only ever does what he decides he's 100% comfortable doing, and there is no person or event that could ever, ever change his mind, even a micron, even for a moment. (I recently asked him if he could talk with me for just 30 seconds, when I really needed some comfort, and he refused.)
- Judging harshly and even vilifying me when he doesn't understand something about me; when in doubt, assuming the worst about me and my intentions. This is hard to take, and I'm always surprised when it appears (it seems way out of proportion to the circumstances, and way out of alignment with how I am to him, or how he seems to regard me most of the time). But it's persistent; it recedes from the foreground when we're in peaceful times, but it comes back later. No amount of peace, love, or sweetness between us makes it go away for good.
- Uncontrolled anger and black-and-white thinking when we're in fights. I mean, that sounds like most fights, right? but for him it seems so extreme. He doesn't get violent, but he immediately, at the drop of a hat, starts seeing/treating me like an enemy, getting really belligerent and contemptuous (and absolutely convinced that he is 100% right and my feelings/views are 0% valid). He'll lose it like this even if I'm keeping calm and gentle; it's not in proportion to what I'm doing. Once (during a fight) I told him how it scared me how nothing could ever override or pause his anger -- that it felt like if I were to fall and break my arm during a fight, he wouldn't help or take me to the hospital. He said, yes, that's true, he probably wouldn't. (Although maybe he was just mad when he said that?)

These things break my heart because I don't understand how you can love someone and also behave like that. (Where as I do understand the concept of having AS traits or being reserved, and how that's unrelated to how much love you have.) If I had a way to understand how it's possible (because I believe he does love me), I'd be in a much better place with all this.

Popsicle, as to your lifeboat question -- as long as he doesn't feel threatened and his boundaries are respected, then yes, he'd be really terrific. If not, then no, I'd be quite out of luck (and hopefully a strong swimmer). Does that make any sense??

But I'm starting to worry more now that I think about how he might be with (hypothetical future) kids. Both with getting overwhelmed (would the demands of parenting drive him to the edge of his rigid boundaries, to the point of shutting down, more often?) and with showing compassion and controlling anger/frustration to a child. I have no idea how he'd be -- in some situations he can be very peaceful and mature. I guess I'm wondering whether the extent to which I feel like I'm OK trading on my own preferences/feelings/needs somewhat in order to get the joys of being with him would feel a lot different if he were being like this to our kids. (And if he has just some AS traits and not others, probably not diagnosable (and his dad was the same), is it possible he could pass that on genetically? I know so little about this stuff!)