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underwater
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24 Sep 2016, 11:50 pm

I am trying to help out a friend, whose son is a late talker. He does not seem to fit any known condition. He didn't start talking until he was four, and now at six he still has a lot of trouble. He understands perfectly what people are saying to him, and he is very sad that he can't express himself well.

He only started talking at four, and now at six he is still having a lot of trouble, both with forming words and with forming sentences. His mother says the fact that he sometimes mixes up the word order in his sentences may be due to the fact that he was taught sign language, where the most important word appears first. Who knows.

Does this sound familiar to anyone? This kid has been tested for everything under the sun, including autism, and as I've known him since he could walk, I am certain he is as NT as they come.

I thought to ask this question here, as I suspect people here might know more about unusual language delays than the experts.


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StarTrekker
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25 Sep 2016, 1:09 am

It could be a lot of things; oral dyspraxia, which is a physical difficulty manipulating the muscles of the tongue, lips and throat. Could be an expressive language delay that can be mitigated with speech therapy, or the most obvious manifestation of a global developmental delay, in which case his whole brain may need time and therapy to catch up. Children who are taught multiple languages at once (e.g English and sign language) are usually slower to develop in either of the languages, because they're learning twice as much at once, but that typically applies to children who are born exposed to two languages, and I'm assuming he wasn't taught sign until it became obvious he wasn't speaking. I'm also assuming he's been tested for hearing problems.


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25 Sep 2016, 1:18 am

I am not sure what you're asking here. Is there a reason for his language delay? Is there any medical history like any history of hearing loss? Does he show any other differences like any issues or any difficulties than just language?

I have memories of not being able to talk well. I just didn't know a lot of words and my vocabulary wasn't high so I didn't have any words to express myself and I couldn't defend myself against other kids. My language was pretty limited. Because my language was limited, I didn't understand lot of things being said to me. I could hear their words but they didn't make sense. It was also pretty frustrating when I would talk and people couldn't understand me so I would get frustrated. I would say a word but they would hear something else instead because I couldn't even say the word even though in my mind I was saying it but outside of my brain, I was saying it differently. It's no wonder autistic kids get frustrated and have meltdowns or would even get aggressive if they have no words to express themselves. I used to attack my mother as a small child and she figured out I just had hurt feelings so I was giving her my pain because I felt ignored. I couldn't tell her she was ignoring me and it was making me upset. But what any three year old can express themselves that way even with language?

From what it seems like about people on the spectrum who were non verbal, they could still understand everything that is being said like a normal person but they couldn't express their language. For me it was none of that. I had limited understanding. Because of my limited language and understanding, I always scored low on IQ tests putting me in the mildly ret*d range. I didn't even read chapter book either because it was all words and I was very visual so I preferred picture books.


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underwater
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25 Sep 2016, 1:25 am

StarTrekker wrote:
It could be a lot of things; oral dyspraxia, which is a physical difficulty manipulating the muscles of the tongue, lips and throat. Could be an expressive language delay that can be mitigated with speech therapy, or the most obvious manifestation of a global developmental delay, in which case his whole brain may need time and therapy to catch up. Children who are taught multiple languages at once (e.g English and sign language) are usually slower to develop in either of the languages, because they're learning twice as much at once, but that typically applies to children who are born exposed to two languages, and I'm assuming he wasn't taught sign until it became obvious he wasn't speaking. I'm also assuming he's been tested for hearing problems.


He does have a hard palate, but so do a lot of people who don't have speaking problems. At one point they had to dig out earwax that were blocking his ears, but if hearing was the problem he wouldn't have a large vocabulary. He is monolingual, and yes, sign language was a response to the language delay.

I assume that if he has oral dyspraxia there would be other signs of dyspraxia as well, but he is in fact extremely strong and well coordinated - he has always had better motor skills than most kids his age, really unusually good balance for example. He is very insensitive to pain, which seems similar to some autistics, but his body language and contact seeking is very NT.

I know his dad is a bit of a mess, a high school dropout, but I don't know much else.


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underwater
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25 Sep 2016, 1:33 am

League_Girl wrote:
I am not sure what you're asking here. Is there a reason for his language delay? Is there any medical history like any history of hearing loss? Does he show any other differences like any issues or any difficulties than just language?

I have memories of not being able to talk well. I just didn't know a lot of words and my vocabulary wasn't high so I didn't have any words to express myself and I couldn't defend myself against other kids. My language was pretty limited. Because my language was limited, I didn't understand lot of things being said to me. I could hear their words but they didn't make sense. It was also pretty frustrating when I would talk and people couldn't understand me so I would get frustrated. I would say a word but they would hear something else instead because I couldn't even say the word even though in my mind I was saying it but outside of my brain, I was saying it differently. It's no wonder autistic kids get frustrated and have meltdowns or would even get aggressive if they have no words to express themselves. I used to attack my mother as a small child and she figured out I just had hurt feelings so I was giving her my pain because I felt ignored. I couldn't tell her she was ignoring me and it was making me upset. But what any three year old can express themselves that way even with language?

From what it seems like about people on the spectrum who were non verbal, they could still understand everything that is being said like a normal person but they couldn't express their language. For me it was none of that. I had limited understanding. Because of my limited language and understanding, I always scored low on IQ tests putting me in the mildly ret*d range. I didn't even read chapter book either because it was all words and I was very visual so I preferred picture books.


I'm asking if anybody knows about anything similar because he has been tested for all kinds of things, and even the experts can't even figure out what's the matter with him, which makes speech therapy a bit of a hit-and-miss. I they knew exactly what the problem was, they might be able to come up with a more efficient strategy for teaching him to speak. He is at the age where it is starting to isolate him, not the least because the speech therapy means he has to travel to a different school from the kids in the neighbourhood.

I'm actually extremely thankful to hear everyone's stories, because everyone has a different perspective, and your combined experiences give me some idea about what language development is all about. For example, your story is very interesting, because you are obviously not intellectually ret*d - so again there is this uneven development of abilities.

Thanks for the responses, guys, it's really very helpful.


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kraftiekortie
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25 Sep 2016, 2:38 am

A person might be quite physically coordinated, yet have oral apraxia/dyspraxia.

I sense this might be the case here.

It's quite possible that he might outgrow this, too.



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25 Sep 2016, 4:24 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
A person might be quite physically coordinated, yet have oral apraxia/dyspraxia.

I sense this might be the case here.

It's quite possible that he might outgrow this, too.


Thanks, that is a really useful bit of information. I didn't know that. The thing is......I've always felt a bit iffy about all the testing and therapy and special attention they've been giving this kid. He and I are a bit on different planets, as I do most of my communication through language, and he's all about body language. But I generally find that small kids don't mind so much if adults are different - if they know you well enough, they accept that you are the way you are, and find some mode of communication.

In any case, my approach to this has been to give him as much attention and leeway I would give any kid, and to try to talk to him about things he's interested in, sort of to demonstrate the joys of communication. I sort of figured that if people are patient with him and he sees the positive sides of using language, he will sooner or later figure it out just by being with people and letting his brain mature. I may be completely wrong about this, though.


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EzraS
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25 Sep 2016, 4:56 am

There are three things that made me a late talker and still mostly nonverbal.

- Autism.
- Dyspraxia (apraxia of speech).
- Selective mutism.



kraftiekortie
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25 Sep 2016, 6:37 am

That's probably the best approach.

The kid definitely needs somebody who doesn't "know" that he has a disorder. To relate to him as a person. He's probably had enough of people treating him like somebody who is "broken."

I didn't "know" I had one, either, as a kid. I think that was of benefit to me.

I was quite a late talker; didn't speak until age 5.5. I didn't have apraxia, though. By six, I spoke like any six-year-old.



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25 Sep 2016, 9:02 am

EzraS wrote:
There are three things that made me a late talker and still mostly nonverbal.

- Autism.
- Dyspraxia (apraxia of speech).
- Selective mutism.


...which is why it's so tricky to deal with, no? That's a lot going on simultaneously. Are you able yourself to analyze in hindsight what in particular was giving you trouble in a particular situation?


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underwater
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25 Sep 2016, 9:10 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
That's probably the best approach.

The kid definitely needs somebody who doesn't "know" that he has a disorder. To relate to him as a person. He's probably had enough of people treating him like somebody who is "broken."

I didn't "know" I had one, either, as a kid. I think that was of benefit to me.

I was quite a late talker; didn't speak until age 5.5. I didn't have apraxia, though. By six, I spoke like any six-year-old.


Yeah, that's why I feel like the mean one a lot of the time, because I think he could do with a bit less attention. There's just so many people orbiting this kid with services, therapies, tests and whatnot. I'm not certain they are of help to him if in fact they are not able to teach him to talk.

I question the idea that we all need to hit certain milestones at certain times in our lives; quite a lot of people have caught up at a later date without any damage having been done. I sometimes feel it would be better to communicate that we are all different, and all valuable.

This kid's social skills are totally all right, except that I feel his mother is letting him get away with stuff that other kids wouldn't be allowed, such as taking other kids' toys from them, based on the notion that this is "his way of communicating that he wants to play with them". Naturally, the other kids don't see it that way.


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25 Sep 2016, 9:19 am

Whilst I am a grown man, this sounds remarkably like me.

I have been diagnosed with autism, but I strongly suspect I have a form of dyspraxia or dyslexia, too.

Do you know if he confuses his relative clauses? Such as "on which" and "at which".

I am always analysing language, but it's very difficult for me to structure sentences in a coherent fahsion - both in writing and verbally.


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kraftiekortie
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25 Sep 2016, 9:25 am

I feel it's very bad not to treat him like any normal kid. Don't treat like he's two. He's six, and probably not cognitively delayed.

Six-year-olds should know not to just take other kids' toys away from them.

He should get interventions, but he should not have the idea that he's "disabled" emphasized.

He might only have a speech disorder, rather than a language disorder.



underwater
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25 Sep 2016, 9:29 am

JakeASD wrote:
Whilst I am a grown man, this sounds remarkably like me.

I have been diagnosed with autism, but I strongly suspect I have a form of dyspraxia or dyslexia, too.

Do you know if he confuses his relative clauses? Such as "on which" and "at which".

I am always analysing language, but it's very difficult for me to structure sentences in a coherent fahsion - both in writing and verbally.


He's too small to use expressions like "on which" and "at which". In any case this is expressed differently in our language.

Do you also have a combination of good motor skills and trouble with speech?


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kraftiekortie
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25 Sep 2016, 9:35 am

I, myself, am somewhat clumsy, but not really dyspraxic as far as my body is concerned. I was a very late talker.

I have slight speech impediments, and I stutter mildly to moderately. I have trouble, especially with sounds which are not part of my language.



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25 Sep 2016, 9:37 am

EzraS wrote:
There are three things that made me a late talker and still mostly nonverbal.

- Autism.
- Dyspraxia (apraxia of speech).
- Selective mutism.

Hm. Another EzraS epiphany! As you probably remember, I had undiagnosed selective mutism until about age 16 years. But, until I read your post, I never thought of myself as nonverbal. Sure, I was hyperlexic with my immediate family and one friend, but selectively mute with EVERYbody else. I guess I had thought that being nonverbal was limited to ID, ASD, Dyspraxia and other disorders. But, of course, being nonverbal because of selective mutism would be a legitimate cause.

EzraS should write his own series of books. He is as fascinating as John Elder Robison, Temple Grandin and Tony Attwood.


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