Studies debunking lack of theory of mind in autistics

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I found this interesting article that debunks assumptions from most clinicians and studies. It debunks assumptions that autistic people lack a theory of mind.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6959478/

In my opinion, some people look at only a small portion of the ASD criteria before concluding that they or someone else has autism.

"He flaps his hands!  Oh, no!  My baby has autism!!" (A lot of infants "flap" their hands up and down when excited.)

"He rocks in time to the Barney theme!" (I used to "rock" sideway to the "Gilligan's Island" theme.)

"He won't look me in the eye." (Hey, dude!  Maybe he's afraid you are going to slap him again!)

The entire ASD criteria must be considered, and only after personal observation and interview of the individual.

I don't lack this theory of mind thing.

I have very good theory of mind. I know that I have a mind and that everyone else has a mind.

Note, this is just an opinion, so please don't ask me for study references, as I have none.

I believe this whole 'theory of mind' misunderstanding arose due to communication differences between autistics and NTs. Delayed auditory processing, language misunderstanding and that kind of thing.

Tests of theory of mind can sometimes be a bit like the game 'Simon Says', where you do the action that you're told to do, but only as long as the person says 'Simon says' at the start. The people who make mistakes ln this game are those who may not be processing language so well. Maybe doing the actions distract them from paying attention to the wording of the command. The issue is probably not that they don't understand the underlying rules of the game or what they are supposed to do.

So when testers apply the Sallyanne test or variations to test for theory of mind and the person being tested fails, this does not necessarily mean they have no theory of mind. It is quite possible their processing of the instructions or of the solution to the problem is just a little delayed. Or that due to language issues they misunderstand the question being asked (for instance, initially processing "where does she think the cookie is?" as "where is the cookie?")

So yes, it's actually really cool to see the theory of mind deficit model thoroughly de-bunked.

I agree, Mrs. Peel.

Well, this one paper does not debunk the theory of mind model. It is simply questions it. Science is not so simple that one study can just overturn something.

The problem of autism is there is not going to be a nice clear-cut theory, gene, or neuropathway that explains everything. Autistic people are not an absolute other, we are human and still have a lot of neurotypical traits. But even with the broad criteria for autism, we do find people that clearly falls into that bucket and those that don't.

But you make some really important points. It is really hard to test for psychological theories. Something like the Sallyanne test can only show a statistical bias. Autistic people and neurotypical children don't get separated into nice buckets because of the test. You can't predict how people interpret a question and the reason for that interpretation. It is testing more than just the autistic component of people's psychology.

And the yes, the idea that it is not we don't have a theory of mind, but maybe a theory of a neurotypical mind is certainly possible. The Double Empathy Problem, developed from the theory of mind concept, shows that autistics and neurotypicals simply have a different social communication, where mixed groups have problems in communication, but not of groups that have the same members. So perhaps the ToM is not wrong, but rather it shows there each group has a particular ToM.

Science is an iterative process.

Sorry I have not been back on this thread my computer broke and I couldn’t use my tiny phone very well I’m now using an iPad.
Thank you for your reply. I wonder did you read a lot of fiction as a child because research shows that reading fiction helps his theory of mind and it would be interesting for me to know if you did.

Hello sorry I’m late back to this thread computer been down So I got an iPad.
May I ask did you read a lot of Fiction in childhood As mentioned above in my post above writing fiction is supposed to help autistic people gain theory of mind.

I didn't read much at all when I was a child but when I did read it was fiction.
But I read somewhere that reading fiction helps any child learn theory of mind skills. That's why the school basically forced us to borrow a book each week from the school library, just a short fictional story suited to our age (up until age 10).
If it wasn't for the school forcing kids to read, I probably wouldn't have read hardly at all.

I wont ask you for any studies do you have a quested me not to.

I Don’t have theory of mind yes I never delayed auditory processing, language misunderstanding and that kind of thing. I learnt to read at two years old but I’ll give it up at the same age because it mattered to me what my dad thought of me and because I was a fast learner he chose to highlight my shortcomings for example my late walking and my pool coordination so I gave reading up.

Scientific studies on autism should be done by autistic people I think although the writings of the article I posted seem to talk sense. I also realise that there are some autistic people who read fiction as children and they don’t always possess theory of mind. I think that although we share traits no to autistic people are the same, that’s just me

So yes, it's actually really cool to see the theory of mind deficit model thoroughly de-bunked.

Last edited by diagnosedafter50 on 07 Feb 2021, 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This is not a duplicate reply.
My first line of the post meant to say I won’t ask you not I want to ask you, I am speaking into my iPad and he has misunderstood me apologies for that. For some reason on my iPad I am only given a few minutes to edit the post.

It’s not just once study On the article.
It says that Google scholar pulls at the first 500 results saying that autistic people lack theory of mind which this to the claims not to be true and to be harmful.

Morton Ann Gernsbacher, one of the contributors of the article seems to know what she is talking about. She is Vilas Research Professor and Sir Frederic Bartlett Professor of Psychology at the University of Wisconsin–Madison. She is a specialist in autism and psycholinguistics and has written and edited professional and lay books and over 100 peer-reviewed articles and book chapters on these subjects. Wikipedia



Yes, it is commonly said in autistic and Asperger’s circles that if you have met one autistic person you have met one, we all seem to be different yet paradoxically we do have common traits such as special interests and sensitivities.

I would like to take credit for the really important points, However I did not make the article I just found it on LinkedIn thinking it would be interesting to you on here. It is really hard to test for psychological traits, I ag

I think science still has a long way to go with autism. Generalises too much.

Thank you for posting the article. I enjoyed. It makes some very valid points. Yes, there are many studies that question TOM and there are many that don't. Obviously, by the number of studies, it shows there are still questions of what TOM is. There are many such discussions in science over theories such as this.

I am familiar with Gernsbacher's work. She has done some very good studies. She like to question very important issues.

By its nature, science always generalizes. Theories for specific cases are not very useful.

Nice to see the dogma being seriously challenged.

What's the current status on the whole "empathy" nonsense by the way? If it hasn't gone through the same yet, then I expect it to be next.

You stole my quote..