Do Aspies have a different Theory of Mind?

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Do we really lack Theory of Mind as "the experts" say, or do we have a Theory of Mind that is different from the ToM of the NTs?

Eg:
I used to open people's eyes to the reality when they expressed a wrong belief (I don't do it anymore, of course) because I was born and lived thinking people preferred truth to delusion (this is an Aspie trait, this preferring true knowledge to belief, not an NT trait). So do I have a ToM that is suited for Aspies and not for NTs or do I lack a ToM?

Eg 2:

When you ask if something makes you look fat, do you honestly want the truth or do you want reassuring and even maybe a little white lie?

I once told a girl that absolutely, no, it wasn't the skirt that was making her look fat.......

I think your 'theory of mind' is more reflective of the truth......less filled with delusions needing to be egotiscially DEFENDED moment to moment. And so if one could 'see' minds.......I think neurotypicals minds contain a lot more *DEFENSES AGAINST REALITY*.....if you know what I mean....you might imagine an nt mind to be full of little soldiers fighting with the truth, thinking how to escape, lie, and build fortresses against the truth....wheras in an aspie mind you might be more likely to see truth maintenance men and logisticians and philsophers building a WORLD WHICH HAS AS ITS GOAL: UNDERSTANDING REALITY.

I would say it depends on the severity of the Asperger Syndrome and how much training we've had. I'm taking a secret course on psychoanalysis, personality disorders and personality psychology at the comfort of my home. I wanna predict everything and be in control of everyone. I'm doing so well that the people who used to piss me off are terrified by how they can no longer manipulate and how I manipulate them. I'm a psychopath in the making and that's a good thing, not a bad thing, because I am fine with it. I realize I don't need to use others' reassurance as a means of survival. Being dependent on everyone is maladaptive. I'd rather let others need my reassurance. That way I control them.

We have theory of mind, the same theory of mind as everyone else. Sometimes it seems like we don't because we can be socially naive, but the term for that is "socially naive", not "lacking in theory of mind".

Greentea, both of the example you give are issues that many people struggle with at some point in their lives, usually when fairly young. And I do not consider the first one, truth above all else, to be an "aspie" trait. To be perfectly honest, I think it's rude, except in a human rights or other ethical situation. Most of the time it's kinder to let people (including ourselves when we need it) believe what they want. They need it.

If I struggle to find the truth about something, it's not because I need the truth because it's the truth, it's because I need the truth in order to get my life working better (practical reasons). I'm sure I'm as full of illusions as anyone else. And I think I'd be happy if I could just stay that way, for at least some things.

If you want to know the truth about theory of mind, try reading Premack and Woodruff's paper. Not on the internet as far as I know, but the reference shouldn't be hard to track down, since it's a classic. I have a series of ToM essays I haven't gotten around to posting on my website yet, that address some of this.

Here's the paper that defined ToM:
David Premack and Guy Woodruff, 1978. Does the chimpanzee have a theory of mind? Behavioral and Brain Sciences 4:515-526

Uh, ToM refers to the notion that other people are running on a mind much as you are, not a set of things which people like.
As a refresher, here's the test.
Q: Alice and Betty are in the room together. Alice puts a ball into Chest A and closes it and then leaves the room. Betty moves the ball from Chest A to Chest B. When Alice re-enters the room, which chest does she think the ball is in?
A: (with a developed ToM) A, because she has not seen it move. or
(with an undeveloped ToM) B, because that's the chest it's in.
This thread is like arguing that Aspies have a different Object Permanence because they know that you can mold the object if you try hard. It's beside the point! This is either the wrong discussion or the wrong title.

Pedentry's my first love. Can you tell?

Supposedly, we don't have a theory of mind when we're young. The term "theory of mind" refers to the understanding that other people have minds that are different from our own. We don't have a very good one when we're young. We develop a theory of mind as we get older, but we process it in a different part of our brain than the NTs do.

I think that Aspie ToM is exemplified by Greg House, in that he analyzes behaviour, cross-references it with past experiences/educated (in his case, often cynical) assumptions as to human nature, fits the puzzle pieces together and determines what the person is thinking, or what he/she is likely to do.

I think it was one of the early tests for very young children suspected of being somewhere on the spectrum. I think it's been superceded.

I think that what they call "theory of mind" isn't something we figure out with our intellect, but something that our brain does by itself. From what I've read it's something that happens in real time for NT's when they're interacting with someone and they're not even aware they're doing it. It's one idea that's been offered as the core disability of Asperger's.
It's one thing to understand a stituation because you've thought about it, and then make thougtfull predictions about it. But it's quite another thing to make these predictions "on the fly". In other words, in real time while you're talking to someone, it's darn difficult to figure out just where you stand with them. I think the way it works is that NT's get the results of their brain having a correct theory of mind in the form of an emotion. They seem to get a "gut reaction" to other people and it gives them an assurance about the other person that we don't get. It really seems to work well for them.

Aspies from what I understand exist on a much less emotional/subjective plain than NTs. We don't really engage in the social "surrealism" most NTs do. Alot of the NTs I meet often say things like "Tell me the truth", but what that really means is "tell me what I want to hear".

oops, I think I opened this topic for debate twice in my WrongPlanet life... So I'm bumping up this thread too, for everyone to benefit from its posts so far. The parallel thread I started is called "Is it really lack of social intuition?" and it's HERE