Why is it easier for NTs to feign?

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marshall,

Why did you [intentionally I presume] delete the first sentence in Jenny's post? Is it because she's an NT, and at least partially confirmed the validity of what I've been saying? Is there a tiny chance you could be in denial ? I'm very sensitive and from my position, it feel like you whacked off my head in retribution. Frankly it's hard not to feel your intense anger directed toward me. I need to tell you that. It's not against the rules but it feels worse than a direct attack.

I would hope you try to be receptive to ideas that can potentially mitigate your suffering [even when they come from someone you don't like]...that is, unless you prefer to suffer, but that's entirely up to you. I've found it hard to admit when I've been in denial no matter how many NTs told me I was. But after years of trying to figure it out for myself, I finally realized an essential part of what they've been trying to get through to me. They couldn't show me how to do it, because they don't do it consciously. By trial and error, and luck, I found a method. Jenny at least partially confirmed that method.

Because a sizeable percentage of the people here intimidate me [including yourself btw], and because I get too emotional when defending my position, I won't initiate my own thread. As a result, I'm limited to reply in the threads other brave souls like youself and Greentea initiate. Greentea has some outstanding threads. I want to apologize to you and the rest for going off-topic. Everything is connected in my mind, so often I can't tell my post has gone way off-topic until someone mentions it. But I think you also owe me an apology for the way you lopped off the beginning of Jenny's post, which was about me.

Because NTs don't struggle with the same issues we do, they acquire many social skills effortlessly. I don't. You don't. Most of the people at WP don't. It's hard work for us. My post that Jenny commented on was the first time I ever tried to put into words the step by step process of forming and projecting a boundary, the main technique I use to protect myself from NTs. And what they use to protect themselves from each other. I thought aspies/auties would be interested. As it was my first attempt, it didnt come out very well.
*******

To answer the OP's question---I think it's easier for NTs to feign because they have a greater desire to protect themselves and a more structured sense of self. Autistics have been stripped of their identity from the moment they were discovered to be different. Stripping us of our sense of self further fragments our self esteem until it is in shreds and pieces on the floor. From the getgo we didn't know how to protect our soft underbelly. Socialization only erodes that basic dysfunction further. Being bullied and tormented drives most of us to retreat and worse. At that point, we don't know who or what we are and there's no sense of self left to protect. That sense of self was stolen from us. Without painstakingly building it back up, there IS no self esteem because there is no identity. That's just my take on it.

Those of us strong enough to survive the socialization process, eventually either turn into recluses or adapt to the social norms, at least a little. I've done both. I've had to struggle to stay alive and have learned techniques that only Aspies who've turned an unconscious social skill into a conscious deliberate process----can communicate to, and teach other aspies/auties.


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Last edited by alba on 05 Jul 2009, 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm really sorry. It wasn't intentional. Please forgive. I can get angry in my posts but it's hardly ever directed at anyone. It's usually the topic itself that rouses my emotions.

I did noticed that I accidentally clipped the first sentence and wondered if I should edit it. I usually copy and paste my posts into a word processor so I can check the spelling while I type. I originally edited the quoted portion of jennyishere's post down in order to respond to a specific portion of what she wrote (the second and third sentences). But then later on I thought it would be better to just include the whole thing. Unfortunately I forgot to include the first sentence when I pasted all the original parts back in.

Sorry if it seemed like I neglected to acknowledge your post out of anger or spite. My mind was on a different track. I realize that I go off on tangents a lot and only respond to small parts of a post if I don't have the time/energy to carefully respond to the whole thing. I realize if I only respond to parts where I disagree it might be misinterpreted as hostility. That wasn't my intention.

I don't have time right now to read the rest of what you wrote but I'll try to get back.

Marshall, thanks for explaining, apology accepted.
I think I over-reacted.

that was nice and quite helpful (to me ) and some gates in my head is clicked to reveal the interconnection between your view and some of the dilemmas and pains mentioned on this thread and other like that
because i feel we need to go deeper and ask :
Why pretense and lies turned out to be so deadly to the AS
What does it reflects on or how does it play with our other known traits,such as love for words and sounds,taking things literally,hatred for authority,raging at little thing that no one sees...
Somehow i feel it's all connected and if our life and talents depend so much on truth and honesty prthapes it would be very wrong and harmful for the AS to try and integrate
seems that we loose our integration,identity,boundaries when adopting those of the NT
True, there is no "us vs them" clear cut border
any human is somewhere on the spectrum
but if your identity,sense of well being,sense of beauty and capabilities depends on an honest integration between words and actions,intents and expression,masks and contents and so forth it may be better to avoid the NT end of the spectrum as much as possible and adopting their altitudes would serve only to weaken our borders and loose the little defense we have from this incredibly cruel and stupid society
our insistence on honest integration of words and deeds might look like childish stubbornness to the sophisticated NT but it hold the key to a world and society of equality and creativity because this integration is just a reflection of reality where every thing and every one is connected in endless smart and wonderful ways

Yeah but NTs are not mind readers, what they "think" is not nessisarly "true", thinking and knowing are completely different things. Most people think all NTs understand the "rules of social engagement" but my experiences say otherwise, I'll give an real example and yes this really happened.

(Me and my friend TH are talking about a subject, the subject reaches it's maximum conclusion for the time)
Me: (I switch to another topic)
TH: How do you suddenly go from one topic to another?
Me: When a subject is talked about and reaches it's maximum conclusion for the time, you naturally switch to another topic to talk about.
TH: ????? I knew that! I'm not stupid....

He apparently didn't know that since he asked why I did it, he also believes he can "read" people quite well, he claimed a genius woman was attracted to me based on "body language" that was nonexistent. I saw no signs of "attraction" from her, and her verbal lanuage struck me as more as an attempt to impress me, of course one could deduct from that, that she was attracted to me. Funny thing about TH, he's married and didn't know his wife was attracted to him at first, there goes the "reads" people argument. I can draw a speculative intent from people's verbal and body language, but I don't jump to conclusions because it could be false, everyone is very different and takes things differently.




I disagree, many NTs are victimized, thinking and knowing are two different things. My ex-gf/friend AP is constantly victimized by her choice in boyfriends, assuming gets you into alot of trouble as is her case, many NTs I know are victimized alot, I'm actually less victimized than many NTs I know.



It's very often misplaced.



Well I already posted an idea earlier on why it's easier for NTs to feint, "It might have to do with the path that some NTs took in grade-school".

I've got to say that if Aspies generally have trouble dealing with white lies and pretenses they will die in Asian cultures.

Humans are social creatures. All these white lies are basically the unspoken agreement of how to get along. If humans told each other the truth about the way they feel about each other, there would be blood on the streets. Take for example teams at work. A lot of the time people will hate each other or at least have team members who irritate them intensely. At the same time they have to work together. Hence the white lies and evasion in order for them to get things done while hating each other. If people were honest about their feelings for each other the team would get broken up and things won't get done. Think about in the past when people in small villages relied heavily on each other to get the fields sowed and harvested and it was very difficult to survive on your own (no such thing as social security). Basically if the ability and desire to feign wasn't ingrained biologically and in societal mores, society as it is today and in the past would never have existed. Actually that is one of the answers to interview questions about teamwork and professionalism - the ability to get along with and work with people you personally dislike.

That is an extreme example of people hating each other. But if you manage the white lies in front of people you hate you naturally do it in front of other people you have less intense feelings for. It is only in front of people you truly feel comfortable with that people let their true feelings out.

Of course I doubt most people would think of this quite in this fashion. To most people since it satisfies a biological impulse, is ingrained since childhood and the way everyone else behaves it is simply the "natural" state of affairs, something they accept unconsciously. It is only when someone or something is outside the way they expect people to act that it becomes something they consciously think about. Unfortunately for Aspies, for most people violating the unspoken rules is usually seen as someone trying to be exceptionally rude. Hence Aspies will be labeled as rude. And of course some people are better at it than others. And some people who are better at it may use their skills to their own advantage.

I would say the more crowded the living conditions, the more important "manners", no matter how false are. For example Asian cultures, which have had very crowded living conditions compared to the rest of the world for millenia place much more importance on manners,white lies and evasion. In an extreme case, in Japan, sometimes they will pretend not to see something to give the illusion of privacy where privacy can't exist because of the crowding.

Last edited by AnnieK on 06 Jul 2009, 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

I agree Anniek--My issue with feigning has more to do with pretending to be someone you're not in order to attract someone or to fit in with a social group.

This could be connected with why people are more scared about flying even though statistically speaking you have a much greater chance of dying in a car crash. The theory is people driving feel they have a sense of control over what is happening and they do it much more often (it is familiar) and hence are not too scared. In a plane they have no control and it doesn't happen much and hence are more scared. NTs feel that they are in control of these white lies and feints (no matter how false that might be) and hence are more comfortable. Aspies feel they are not in control of the vehicle and hence it is much more threatening. Of course the problem is the more scared you feel, the more you avoid it and hence the problem just gets worse.

There have been so many interesting points made in these posts that I hardly know how to begin a response. AnnieK has made a good point about Asian cultures, I think. I've spent quite a bit of time in two Asian countries and can also speak an Asian language. Certainly in the countries I've visited, politeness and the ability to pick up social nuances, and indeed, social conformity in general, are heavily emphasised, much more than in my own country, Australia. Interestingly, difficulties with eye contact would be less of an issue - looking directly into someone's eyes, especially someone of higher social status, can be seen as rude in some Asian cultures (and also some Australian Aboriginal cultures).

I also agree with Demon-Chorus that some NTs are poor at detecting lies or interpreting the non-verbal communication of others. I'm a high school teacher and I can tell you that many adolescents are not good at it, and their skills develop as they mature. Younger teens, especially boys, are generally much more literal-minded and need to be told things explicitly, whereas older teens tend to be quicker to pick up cues. Some NT adults never seem to develop sophisticated "feigning" or politeness skills. Some of these individuals face difficulties, but others may be accepted on their own terms- people may say they are "down-to-earth", "no-nonsense" and that they "call a spade a spade". This can even be seen as a positive quality, although perhaps not in a diplomat.

I can also see Nara44's point that people with AS attempting to integrate into an NT-dominated society are very likely to face threats to their identity and boundaries. They will be attempting to play a complex social game according to rules which they have to apply consciously while most of the NTs around them can do it intuitively. The potential for confusion and embarrassment would be great- I can barely imagine how uncomfortable and confronting it would be to find yourself in this position. I can certainly understand why Marshall experiences great anxiety- so would anyone placed in such a position- I'm so sorry. I don't see any easy resolution to this, either, other than improving public awareness of ASDs and promoting acceptance of diversity.

This whole thread is making me think very hard, Greentea.

I strongly agree that there needs to be more promoting of acceptance and diversity, especially for those of us who appear to be very "high functioning" at first glance yet have many issues hidden just below the surface. I think there are many dimensions to ASD's. Social awkwardness is just one part of the picture.

I think my greatest issue is that people don't automatically notice anything remarkably different about me. Therefore when I do have an issue it's assumed that I can easily correct it when that isn't the case. For instance, I don't like interruptions and feel that I need to finish one task before starting another. NT's don't understand how these little things all add up to make me feel miserable. If I bring up this issue and attempt to explain my frustration I feel like I will be patronized. By revealing my frustrations I jeopardize my social standing.

granatelli's post on page 5 vaguely reminded me of this patronizing attitude I experience from NT's regarding my being "rigid". That post kind of set me off emotionally and lead me to go off on somewhat of a tangent from the main discussion. I seem to have confused some people by injecting my tangentially related personal issues into the discussion. I apologize to anyone for coming across as angry and bitter.

Some how i feel that struggling for truth deserve more than tolerance or awareness to diversity
let's not forget that the desire for truth is ingrained biologically and mentally in the human race as much as the ability and desire to feign and i suspect the quest for truth is responsible for our survival and development as a race at least as much as our tendency to lie and pretend
I'll even take the risk of being very unpopular here,as in the "real life",and credit the quest for truth for the better and the more positive side of human development.
Art,science,Technology,Economics etc... are all fields where truth is of utmost importance,So how come truth is so undesirable in our daily life ?
It is true that in Asia(i was born and lived in Asia most of my life),especially in the more crowded and traditional parts, u can't along without faking it left and right,(it is bloody any way and perhaps if ppl would stop lying so much to themselves and others it would be less bloody)
But
If we look at the way society evolves,technologically,socially,economically... we can clearly see it develops to be more selective,individualistic and less crowded and determinstic,
Consequently it gives more choices to the individual and more freedom when it comes to selecting partners
U don't have to lie if u can choose to work with people u don't hate
It may sound a bit Utopian to most of u but i don't work with people i don't feel comfortable with
I'm a programmer,quite good at what i do, and i care about my mental health much more than i care about money, so i choose only contracts that respect my privacy and my honesty,
I can't stand crowd and noise so i work at my home where it is quite or at the park or the beach .
there is a clear and undeniable connection between the quality of the work we do and the quality of our mental state and well being
the more creative position u hold the more clearer the connection between the 2 and sometime it drive me crazy to se how many ppl miss such an obviuos point
Cooperation that based on lies and pretense is doomed anyway,
Don't bother
I'm not naive and i know that TRUTH is beyond human reach,
we are mortal and as such must pretend and lie to certain degree,
but
To set it as a goal,as a model for the right social behavior while being tolerant(at best) to the few who feel truth is an essential part of their humanity and talent is very very wrong and very unbeneficial to the society at large.
Please, try to look at the future and not at the past
if anything, AnnieK examples proves how much the necessity to lie and pretend are linked to poor standard of living.
do we want to set poor,crowded,stressed environment as our goal ?
as the world progress ppl are bettering their living arrangement which in turn leads to higher creativity where parameters such as honesty and truthfulness and transparency becoming more important
which in turn leads to better living
this is a very good cycle
unfortunately it seems that too many people
even enlightened and educated people such as people on the thread are supporting the opposite directions,
The "bad cycle"
times is changing
please pay attention

I don't know that it is always easier for NTs. I've been a feigner all my life. I could never be truthful about what's on my mind, what I'm up to, what I really want. It would be too awkward/embarassing/dangerous for infinite reasons. Maybe that's why I feel so misunderstood...lol

"Poetic license", the placebo effect, "cyber space" and bubble economies are all examples in each of those fields where a certain ability to suspend belief is a critical. Not lying well doesn't automatically make someone honest, it just makes them a bad liar.



Google the Rashomon effect and see how subjective truth really is. If a man claims God, or his pet dog, or the ceramic toad on his nightstand gave him stock tips or told him to take an umbrella to work, he may actually believe it to be the truth. If someone tells me she loves me during an alcoholic blackout and then denies it later, which version of the "truth" should I believe?



My belief is that people overlook a lot of differences when you make the attempt to reach out. "Superficial" conversations are connecting points, either you find a point where you connect or you don't. What someone has to say is as meaningless as you choose it to be. Listening is what opens the doorway to deeper subjects and more satisfying conversation. If you're really listening, then you'll find you're blurting out questions that show you're making the connection.

Pretending to listen is "faking it" and I agree, it's a waste of energy. If someone can't be bothered to listen while they're mentally rehearsing what they're going to say next, then the conversation is shallow and meaningless.

The question is suspending disbelief in what/
If u really listen to the collective voice of the AS community u may dicover that a lot of the issues raised are the result of NT confusing their relative and subjective exitence to be the absolute truth
Proof?
most of the time it is the NT who force their distorted perception on their surrounding
most of the time u will find the AS in a position where he is almost unseen and unheard
we listen and see
u r just too blind and deaf to see and hear it
to proud to admit obvious fact which staring u in the face
The AS as general are characterized in more reflective,distant stance,as a mater of a fact most ppl criticize us exactly for that ,u sir are barking at the wrong tree,very typical i might add/n







Does my comments here include any of the above ?
Did my writings here were not relevant to the point raised ?
Yours on the other hand is an obvious and pure attempt to distort what i write which make your next remark hypocritical at the least/
I detailed trends and social facts in order to support my point,
i didn't claimed to hear God through my lampshade
your demagogue sucks








Again
I didn't based my points on the meaningless of the other posters
that what U do
I listened and responded point by point and made the connection i though will illustrate best my points
I wish i could understand why it is so important to you to draw me and my comments so falsly
but i must say i'm quite used to that
naturally

Well said nara.


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Except for one little thing. What if an Aspie who is dead set on being truthful or honest is simply wrong? What if there is more than one reasonable possible rational explanation or reason? Another plausable explanation or interpetation? Then the whole "It's more honorable to be honest thing" goes out the window & the person comes off as a know it all, closed mind rigid jerk who is no better than the flat earthers. IMO there is a razor fine line between conviction of truth and self centered arrogance.